ATVS Praises Vandy; Bitches About Polls Again
Vandy had a great night last night, taking down its first ranked opponent since Jefferson-Pilot was in its infancy. But perhaps we should be looking at the pollsters who continued to rank South Carolina after their abysmal offensive performance the previous week.
I think they probably just looked at the score, and there is something striking about a 34-0 victory over an ACC team. Or perhaps there isn't, considering the ACC was mauled all week.
But anyway, I come not to praise the Gamecocks, or to bury them, but to use them as a starting point to once again rail against pre-season and early-season college football polls and rankings. Or at least, to rail against how they work, which is to say, they don't work.
The other morning, I was listening to a sports talk show on my way to work, and one of the hosts commented that some pollsters moved the Alabama Crimson Tide from unranked on their ballot all the way to #2. The word that came out of his mouth and into the microphone was "ridiculous". Personally, I find it very defensible, and I would appreciate if we saw more of it.
Put simply, preseason rankings are guesses based on no data. Rankings after the first week are educated guesses based on some data.
No Data vs. Some Data? Which one is better? If your answer is "some data is much better than no data", you and I see eye to eye, and we probably both believe it is justifiable to make radical changes to a ranking the first time we have access to some data.
My problem with the radio host's comment is that the person discussed polls and made a huge value judgment in how a few pollsters voted without even once discussing the standards used, or what standards should be used. His criticism was along the lines of, "How could they not be one of the 25 best teams in the country a few days ago and now be #2 in the country?" The answer to the rhetorical question is actually easy. Their previous ranking was based on nothing, and their current ranking is based on actual performance.
It all comes back to standards. The standards to apply in ranking late in the season is easy. Late in the season, you rank according to accomplishments on the field during the season. While I think a lot of voters apply that rule incorrectly, I hope we can all agree that this is the rule that should be applied.
Early in the season, or in the pre-season, it's a different story. There has been little in the way of "accomplishment" on the field for most team, as most halfway decent teams have played overmatched cupcakes in the opening week. What standard do we apply to those teams? How, at this point, do we rank a USC team that thoroughly dominated a team that almost has a pulse against a Georgia team that thoroughly dominated a team that doesn't have a pulse? Do we try to determine a ranking based solely on that?
If we go with "accomplishments on the field", it is perfectly defensible to rank USC #1 and Bama #2 right now. Heck, we might even by duty-bound to rank them #1 and #2. After all, those two teams pretty clearly had the most impressive wins of the first week of the season.
While I detest early season rankings, I appreciate it a little more when we see voters actually rank teams based on what they have accomplished, but as LSUJonno pointed out recently, the standards seem to change to benefit favored teams. As he points out, USC jumps Georgia in the polls by thrashing Virginia, but LSU did not jump USC in the polls by thrashing Virginia Tech last year. Last year, teams said of USC "they're #1 until someone beats them." At least, they said that with their actions if not their words. This year, it's a different story. Georgia doesn't get the "they're #1 until someone beats them" treatment.
I think there simply are no standards, and people apply whatever standards suit their needs, or they don't ever even think about the standards to apply. I think it's the lawyer in me that wants rigorously applied standards. When we rank teams, let's at least talk about what we're ranking. When we rank teams early in the season, are we ranking "perceived ability"? Or are we ranking "expected performance"? Those are two different things, and using different standards produces different results.
And when and how do we mix in "actual performance"?
If it's the lawyer in me that wants standards, it's the former engineer (Master's Degree of University of Delaware; Go Fighting Blue Hens!) in me that appreciates actual data. That's why I loathe and refuse to participate in or consider pre-season rankings. They are based on no data. They are at best educated guesses based on past performance and other factors, but in no predictable way. Their entrenchment ("USC is #1 until someone beats them") leads to problems and injustices, or at least petty aggravations. Or in the case of the aforementioned radio host, their lack of entrenchment leads to confusion.
Anyway, congratulations to Vandy for beating its first ranked opponent in quite some time, even if that team probably shouldn't have been ranked. It was actually a really entertaining game, and I'm glad I stayed up to watch it. Unlike Poseur, I could really give a crap about our strength of schedule at this point. My goal for LSU is just to win the SEC. I don't really care how we do it or where we end up ranked if we do. Besides, Bama's win last week looks like it will elevate our strength of schedule just a little. So, I like to see entertaining games, and I have a soft spot for Vandy and like to see them do well.
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preseason rankings
Preseason rankings aren’t so bad. In today’s world of round the clock (and round the calendar) fan and media surviellance, practice reports, injury reports, televised spring games, team, conference, and sport-wide blogs, “insider” publications, heightened alumni involvement, etc., it borders on the disingenous to suggest that early rankings are based on no data. Come on. We have data coming out of our ears. If we don’t have enough data to issue early season rankings, then why did the 2007 preseason polls correctly identify 7 out of the top 10 teams in the final polls? The fact of the matter is that those of us that truly follow college football have a fairly decent idea of where teams fall within the pecking order before a down is played each year. And generally (though not always) any errors in the early rankings are corrected over the course of the year as the principal bases of those rankings gradually migrate from perceived strength and reputation to actual on the field performance. I say “not always” because it is clearly a big leg up in the BCS race to start at the top, where you can stumble and still stay close enough to make a comeback in the rankings (like LSU last year) than to start low (or unranked) and have to claw your way to the top. In any event, let’s not pooh-pooh the early season rankings too much. They give us something to talk about in the early/off season and any errors in those rankings are generally rendered harmless by the end of the season.
by cclsu1 on Sep 5, 2008 8:11 AM CDT 0 recs
If what we're seeking is
“actual performance”, which in my opinion is the only legitimate measure, there’s no data until someone plays a game. That’s what I’m getting at. And yes, we can generally identify in general terms who most of the better teams are, how can we get that order right? And what does it mean anyway.
And you yourself use the term “correctly identify 7 out of the top 10 teams in the final poll” which is a predictive measure, a measure I don’t particularly care for, because the prediction actually affects the final outcome.
Richard Pittman
by Richard Pittman on
Sep 5, 2008 12:06 PM CDT
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Well....
Maybe I missed your point on this, but when you say preseason polls are based on “nothing”, are you completely discounting a teams returning players, current coaching staff, etc…?
By either of the standards you mention
1.) perceived ability
2.) expected performance
both are affected by a teams returning starters and coaches vs opposing teams returning starters and coaches.
I tend to agree w/ your overall sentiment directed towards preseason polls, but I feel it is a little overboard to say that they are based on “nothing.”
by Zandor435 on Sep 5, 2008 8:15 AM CDT 0 recs
Yes, both are affected by returning starters and coaches, but are either really a legitimate measure? And how do you go from “predictive” or “perceived” to “actual”? In week 4, are you still trying to predict how good a team will be over the course of the season, or are you just looking at how they’ve played so far?
Richard Pittman
by Richard Pittman on
Sep 5, 2008 12:10 PM CDT
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Richard, great post.
Let me rant a little myself…
Polls are absolutely necessary for college football. Why? Because schedules aren’t regulated/balanced at the NCAA level, therefore record alone will not display the quality of the team. However, since polls are necessary, and important, they should be regulated..
Let’s take the example of the preseason poll. What is the goal? Is this a power ranking which would only take into account the strength of the team based on last years performance and returning starters and impact freshman? Or is it an attempt at a prediction of how the teams will finish based on schedule strength, conference strength, home & away games, etc. There is no standard! A lot of people didn’t vote UGA #1 in preseason because “their schedule is too tough”. This is ridiculous! Why penalize a team in the polls for SCHEDULING TOUGH GAMES, and then penalize them again for PLAYING TOUGH GAMES should they lose. There is such a lack of logic in the polls right now it is sickening.
Off the subject slightly…
In my opinion it is an embarrassment that the BCS uses the coaches poll in it’s ratings. Not only is it a huge conflict of interest but the average college football fan watches more games than college coaches do. Sure coaches know a lot about their next opponent, and teams that they have already played, but I promise you I know more about Missouri right now than Les Miles does.
by LSU Jonno on Sep 5, 2008 8:38 AM CDT 0 recs
I think you’re saying it right. Teams get penalized in early-season polls for scheduling tough games, then they have to actually play the tough games, and they may or may not get credit for it if they win. They certainly get punished for losing them.
I don’t know if regulation is the answer, but I think we really should talk more, on a national level about the THEORIES behind the rankings. What models are we using to evaluate and rank teams? Are those models the best models? And we should talk about whether pre- and early-season rankings are really a good idea, or if we should just start ranking later in the season, like the Harris poll does.
Personally, I think there should not be any rankings until mid-season, and ALL rankings should be based purely on what a team has accomplished on the field. No one should use the “I won’t move a team down unless they lose” criterion. Anyone who uses such criterion should be stripped of credentials.
Richard Pittman
by Richard Pittman on
Sep 5, 2008 12:13 PM CDT
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Resume ranking
I like SMQ/Dr. Saturday/Matt Hinton’s methodology. He’s willing to blow up his rankings every week based on the cumulative accomplishments of each team. He ranks each team based on the quality of it’s wins (and losses) in the season to that point. Preseason bias, future schedule strength, program reputation are all eliminated as much as humanly possible, although there is still admittedly judgment on the relative value of each win.
For instance, this week, he judged Alabama to have the best win overall, so they’re ranked number one (their 480th National Championship). If Clemson continues to tank, that win will lose value over the season and other teams will climb ahead. If Clemson rebounds, then Alabama will continue to get credit for a high quality win (until they lose to this year’s ULM). He even highlights that this causes him to rank UCLA 4th and to rank La Tech above LSU on this week’s ballot because (in his opinion) a close win over SEC member Mississippi State is better than a dominant win over a I-AA team, even if said team was the I-AA champion last year.
Of course, this approach means that his ballots fluctuate wildly in the early season as some early key games separate teams from the creampuff non-conference wins, earning him friendly ridicule from the Keeper of the Blogpoll. Kyle King at Dawgsports used a similar method last year, but I noticed this year he’s decided to factor in some judgment based on prior rankings. Kyle also got some crap from Brian about this last year, but his defenses of his methodology were entertaining (and voluminous).
by The Bengal on Sep 5, 2008 6:24 PM CDT 0 recs

















