Defensive Front Sevens -- Weight Matters
Go read Tomahawk Nation's article on the importance of weight up front (yes, I know, intuitively obvious but there's a lot more there). Cracking 1780 pounds seemed to be a near requirement for a top 20 defense. Even more interesting is that LSU is about to expereince a huge drop off in size if spring weights are to be trusted. Fascinating work.
almost 2 years ago
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Very interesting article
Only issue I have is that media guides are about as reliable as Pravda when it comes to accurately listing players’ weights. But assuming the data is valid, it’s a very good observation, and troubling if we’re going to play bantamweight Barkevious Mingo at linebacker.
Don't Panic.
by 4.0 Point Stance on Jun 29, 2010 9:31 AM CDT reply actions
Very difficult.
And difficult for all teams. I tried to use a variety of sources, but it was not easy.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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Start the freshmen?
Honestly, this is the best case I’ve seen for thrusting Davenport into early action. We might need a big mountain to play next to Nevis. Livingston could play passing downs. Or put on weight.
Really, I don’t worry about the ends so much, as speed can be just as valuable as size, but having some beef at tackle is a requirement.
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This is something we looked at last year (DT v. DE)
We actually found a lot of the best 20 defenses had ends that were close to the size of their tackles. Iowa is a good example:
DT 285
DT 297
DT 270
DE 261
LB 235
LB 238
LB 235
The idea being that if you have quick penetrators at one spot, you need to have some guys who can hold the P.o.A. w/o as well.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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Out of curiosity...
… since you’re here and answering questions… are these numbers biased against 3-4 defenses? You’d think a 4-3 defense would have more size by virtue of having four down linemen. I have no idea, just throwing it out there.
Very cool work though.
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I don't think so
I mean, Nick is a Parcells Belichek guy all the way and he is always going to have huge defenses. But only one 3-4 defense made the best 20 last year.
You can get your 4-3 pretty big. I think we will continue to see larger and larger defenses as teams increasingly realize the stuff the great defensive coordinators of the 90s ran (Mickey Andrews- FSU) doesn’t work anymore.
Also, in 2008 Cal made the list with its 3-4 defense. This year perhaps UGA goes from a top 45ish defense to a top 20?
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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by Bud Elliott on Jun 29, 2010 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions
Marcus Spears and Marquise Hill were both huge at end
And that worked out fairly well for us.
Don't Panic.
by 4.0 Point Stance on Jun 29, 2010 9:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Great username
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Saban's 2003 size
Fisher at FSU is building something that looks similar to the 2003 LSU team (Nick’s 4-3, not 3-4).
2003 LSU:
DE Marquise Hill 297
DE Marcus Spears 295
DT Lavalias 290
DT Williams 290
LB Alexander 230
LB Turner 255
LB Vaughn 225
That’s 1880 from a 4-3, which is pretty stellar
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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by Bud Elliott on Jun 29, 2010 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree
We have been missing that guy since Dorsey left; Ricky Jean-Francois had a chance to be the guy in 08, but he was never the same after injured in Miss St. game. That changed that whole game; they started pounded it up the middle. Size overall certainly matters, but having a Dorsey, Sue, or Cody makes a big difference. I was surprised to see Davenport—Top 150 and 300+—not at least second team.
Big question is
Will Pep Levingston and guys like Josh Downs, Mike Brockers and Bennie Logan put on weight? Downs supposedly is up to the 290 range, but I haven’t heard anything about the others.
Updated weights
As Billy said, Downs is supposed to be at 290. If we assume that the starting D-Line is Montgomery (up to 255), Downs, Nevis, Chancey and keep Baker, Sheppard, and Francois at linebacker.
Montgomery – 255
Down – 290
Nevis – 290
Chancey – 275
Baker – 221
Shepard – 240
Francois – 210
Total = 1780
Substitute Pep and Mingo (who is up to 230/235 range) on passing downs. We are easily within reach of a 1790 defensive line.
by Big McLargeHuge on Jun 29, 2010 10:19 AM CDT reply actions
What about Adams and Livingston?
I have a hard time believing Downs has already added 15 lbs since spring.
Ditto Montgomery. He was 240 in Spring. 15 lbs already with 5 weeks to go? Skeptical.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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The 270 on Downs
Was the weight he came in at. I do think he looked at least a little bigger in the spring, but the way LSU lists weights, there’s no way to know really. They’re not exactly diligent about updating it.
by Billy Gomila on Jun 29, 2010 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions
Said he weighed in at 275 (not 275) in Spring.
Not trying to argue. Definitely agree some ADepts need to do a better job of this.
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by Bud Elliott on Jun 29, 2010 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions
No and I wasn't trying to argue
It was a very interesting piece, and you can only go by what’s listed. The weight on Downs is something I’d been told, but there’s no way to verify on him, or anybody else.
by Billy Gomila on Jun 29, 2010 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions
You look at the best S&C coaches out there
LSU, Bama, Nebraska, UF, and now (finally) FSU (we got the guy who yokked up SMU after being an assistant for LSU from 2002-2007). Teams like that are going to quickly add size in the off-season.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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by Bud Elliott on Jun 29, 2010 10:41 AM CDT up reply actions
The size question is definitely one
Most of us have for the defense this year. With some redshirt guys and the juco transfer Adams, it’s a much deeper group (and more athletic I think), but size is definitely a concern. If Levingston and Downs do in fact get north of the 285-290 mark, I think it gets a little better. Ditto Mike Brockers, who was already in the 290s but needs to get north of 300 preferably since he’s so tall. Because I’m not sure Chris Davenport’s ready to contribute this year yet, unfortunately.
Davenport was a beast! What's his issue?
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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by Bud Elliott on Jun 29, 2010 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions
Rumors of some motivational issues
He was running like third team in the spring. We’ll see if anything changes in August.
by Billy Gomila on Jun 29, 2010 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions
While Bud Elliot is here let me just say I really like your site
A lot of the SB Nation sites try to rip off the EDSBS-Black Heart Gold Pants model. And I love what Orson and Opps Pow do. But it’s nice to see some people who play with numbers and take the nerdy approach.
Don't Panic.
by 4.0 Point Stance on Jun 29, 2010 11:05 AM CDT reply actions
NERDS!!!!!
Sorry. Couldn’t help it. But I agree. We try to mix it up here and do both nerdy and goofy stuff, but we also know that we’re not as funny as Orson. Who is?
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
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Well thanks.
We do funny on Friday sometimes. Hit or miss for sure.
Ponder lacks arm strength? Think again.
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by Bud Elliott on Jun 29, 2010 11:18 AM CDT up reply actions
PFFT!
Undersized! HA!! I’m not worried.
The secondary’s improved and undersized or not, the D-line HAS to be better than last year’s bunch.
Billy told me that there was no way we’d be worse than last year up front.
http://www.andthevalleyshook.com/2010/5/3/1455799/hope-can-drive-a-man-insane-a
And I still believe that.
But last year’s d-line was so bad that’s still not a high standard.
by Billy Gomila on Jun 29, 2010 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm just not sure we've hit rock bottom on D-line play.
We were still somewhat effective at stopping the run save for the Bama and UW games.
We may improve our sack numbers this year and QB hurries, but I expect to give up more yards on the ground. Although some of that will probably be due to inexperience at LB and not all D-line fault.
I was really optimistic about LB's
But the spring game wasn’t encouraging. Taking a wait and see approach there…though one positive there is that Chavis is great at developing LB’s.
by Billy Gomila on Jun 30, 2010 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions
I know this is a day late, but I had a thought
Is it possible that weight isn’t the actual deciding factor, but is just a signal of another factor that’s actually more relevant. Specifically, is there a correlation between size and experience? All other things being equal, you’d expect a D line of four seniors to be bigger than a D line of four freshmen. Perhaps that explains part of it.
Don't Panic.
by 4.0 Point Stance on Jun 30, 2010 9:39 AM CDT reply actions
Good point
That’d require a whole lot more research, but it’s a reasonable hypothesis.
by Billy Gomila on Jun 30, 2010 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions
You should bring up this point with the Fl St. guys.
I’d be interested in them comparing the ages of the linemen they are talking about.
without any research
I think the prevailing belief that is encouraged by this research (which includes my own belief) is that an undersized group of upperclassmen is slightly less valuable than an oversized group of underclassmen. In other words, I think I’d rather have a raw, physical line with maybe one leader in the bunch than a savvy, experienced group who just doesn’t have the size to stop leading pass-rushers.























