Oversigning: A Solution
Poseur did a terrific job of highlighting the partially hidden agenda of some advocates of oversigning reform. But as Poseur states, just because some of the criticisms against the practice are self-serving or ignorant, does not mean that the current system can't be improved.
I most definitely have misgivings about the current system, and have thought for years that the way major college football works can be detrimental to the athletes, in particular as it regards the scholarships, which can be canceled at any time if the player's performance is not what someone in charge thinks it should be. To that end, I propose a solution. It is a solution that addresses all of the problems with oversigning, which I identify as follows:
- The problem of initial oversigning, which is signing more players than you can possibly enroll (i.e. more than 25), banking on one or more of them failing to qualify academically and/or some agreeing to "greyshirt;"
- The problem of signing more players than you have room on your 85-man scholarship lineup, expecting some players to go to the NFL or to transfer or otherwise leave the program; and
- The problem of players coming to school expecting to get an education only to find that their scholarship is no longer available to them.
I don't know if my solution is "radical" or not, but it would certainly change things. In particular, I think it would allow coaches to adjust their roster as they see fit, empower players who are under-performing on the field to continue their education or their football careers or both, and do away once and for all with the little-discussed but troubling practice of dubiously putting players on "medical scholarships." After the jump...
Here is my proposal, completely replacing the current 85/25 rule and the 1-year renewable scholarship:
- Schools be allowed to accept a maximum number of National Letters of Intent per year. That number can be 25 or 26 or whatever, but cap it at a certain number, whatever is agreed to be wise. I am careful here to expressly state that it is the National Letter of Intent that is limited, because I will also be changing what this NLI means to the school and to the player.
- Every player who signs (and has accepted) a National Letter of Intent has a scholarship for 6 calendar years. That's right. Six. No more year-to-year renewable scholarships. Every scholarship for a player who signs an NLI that is accepted by a school has the scholarship for six years, conditioned only upon the player (I really should say "student" in this context) remaining in good academic standing with the university. The student need not continue playing football, need not maintain constant enrollment, need not do anything other than obey the student code of conduct and maintain his grades sufficient to stay in good stead with his university. I'm not proposing changing the "5 years to play 4" rule. I am suggesting that the scholarship should last beyond the player's eligibility to play. I would not be opposed to allowing this scholarship to be renewed past 6 years in cases of hardship or if the student is making progress toward a post-graduate degree.
- Any player who is allowed on the team without a National Letter of Intent may be given a one-year renewable scholarship. This is your standard walk-on situation. If you have scholarships left over after all your regular players have gotten one, you can give it to a walk-on without being held to it year-to-year.
- Each team may have a maximum of 85 Active Scholarships. I have introduced a new term. The "Active Scholarship". Everyone who has an NLI accepted by the school is immediately put on "Active Scholarship" status. If time passes and the coach decides the guy is a discipline problem, can't cut it on the field, or whatever, the player can be moved to "Inactive Scholarship" status. In other words, he can be cut. The difference is that even if he is cut, he continues to receive a scholarship, for as long as 6 years if he so chooses.
- Once moved to Inactive Scholarship status, a player may never return to Active Scholarship status and may not be involved with the team. The player is cut from the team. He will never count against the 85 player limit again, and if the team has less than 85 scholarships accounted for, it may give one to an incoming player or to an existing walk-on player. The key here is that you can only move from Active to Inactive once if you signed an NLI, and doing so removes you from the team forever, but you still have your scholarship for the full six years if you want it. This is not true of players who do not sign an NLI, who can be moved on and off of scholarship status at will, but get no promise of six years of school paid.
- Any player moved to Inactive Scholarship status after signing a National Letter of Intent may transfer to any school that will have him that is not scheduled to be an opponent of the original team in the next year, and will be immediately eligible to play. This is where the player really has power. If he signs the NLI and has it accepted, but is "cut" he can go wherever he wants without needing anyone to sign off on it, without requiring permission of the original school, so long as he is not going to a team that will be an opponent in the next season. There would be no more need to sit out for a year. It seems unfair to me that a player can be cast off from one institution, lose his scholarship, yet still not be able to go where he wants to continue his football career/education without having to sit out a year. This way, if School #1 decides you aren't good enough, but School #2 thinks you are, you can go to School #2 at will.
- There is no limit to Inactive Scholarship status students.
That's my proposal. The overall effect is that any player who is signed for his football prowess will have a full opportunity to complete his education for free, even if his football prowess diminishes. He will also have less resistance to continuing his football career if that is what he would prefer to do. Coaches will also have the flexibility to adjust their rosters based on merit without having to ruin a kid's education prospects. If a player is "cut", it will still be sad, but in reality any kid who isn't one of the 85 best players at LSU or Alabama or wherever probably isn't going to make a living playing football after college, and at least he would get an opportunity to get an education.
Also, after a player's eligibility is over, he will still have an opportunity to continue his education, on the Athletic Department's dime. Of course, he does not have to do so, but he can if he wants.
This proposal decouples football from academics. One need not continue to excel at football in order to finish one's education. Also, at the end of football eligibility, education need not end. Economically disadvantaged kids who go to school for football won't have to leave their educations behind if their eligibility runs out before they get a degree. It emphasizes the STUDENT in student-athlete, and improves fairness to the athlete in all respects, while at the same time allowing a football coach to make roster adjustments he needs to make to improve his team.
What would this mean for JUCOs? Nothing. Teams would still be free to utilize JUCO transfers and place kids in friendly JUCOs. They just should not accept a National Letter of Intent from that student until he is ready to enroll.
What does it cost? A little more money. It might hurt programs that are operated on a shoestring, as they would not necessarily be able to afford to have tons of students getting free educations after their football days are over. For programs like those in the SEC, the extra cost would be chump change, and it would be chump change that would be going to actually EDUCATING players, a novel concept.
Who's with me?
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Sounds good for the most part
but wouldn’t that system allow a player to sign a letter of intent & then essentially decide not to play? It seems kind of odd that they would be entitled to 6 yrs of education without playing a single game.
I’m sure motivation isn’t a problem for most players, but there is a pretty big loophole for athletes who don’t make a good faith attempt to meet the terms of their scholarship. What happens when a 3rd string senior player with no NFL prospects decides he’s tired of waking up early for practice?
The prospect of losing one’s scholarship encourages more competition & leads to a better team, but that doesn’t seem like the type of motivator colleges should be using. Still, I’m not sure how popular giving that type of leverage would be to players. Am I misunderstanding your solution or is there an answer to that problem?
I think the problem of people signing and not putting forth effort would be vanishingly small
Isolated cases? Maybe, but just chalk those up to not scouting players right.
Father. Husband. Lawyer. Nerd.
by Richard Pittman on Jan 30, 2011 5:34 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I think you're underestimating
the ability of 19 year olds to be lazy bums. Especially after the first time in his life he isn’t starting at his position.
No need for such radical changes.
Just make the Big 10’s rules national.
There’s no oversigning in the Big 10.
You know, short of rules, you could always just choose to do the right thing and not oversign. Most schools don’t, including Florida, Georgia, and Vanderbilt.
You sir are an idiot and a troll.
Do you have nothing better to do than to stalk an LSU board?
Get a life.
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
Why not make Ivy League & D-III rules national?
Why can ethics extend to 25 kids who possibly may not get into an academic institution w/o an athletic gift?
Why not go completely ethical like D-III & the Ivy League & not offer athletic scholarships? No need to answer, just wanted to point out how your “ethics” are nothing more than a personal grievance against schools that do things you happen to not agree with.
You can always go root for an Ivy League or a D-III school & be the most ethical motherfuckin’ fan in the nation. You may even be featured on Outside The Lines one day. You could even print that on a CafePress Shirt: “I’m One Ethical Motherfvcker!” It’d be funny AND ironic. Plus you could sell a few on the side for some pocket change. That is if your ethics would allow it, of course….
I must create my belief system lest I be enslaved by another - Thomas Paine
by Curtis Bleaux on Jan 30, 2011 9:29 PM CST up reply actions
There's nothing unethical about the Big 10 rules that limit oversigning.
There is something unethical about schools oversigning and thus compromising their objectivity regarding advice to current students.
So just switch the Big 10 rules. What’s the problem? Why are you so scared of this?
Look
We get that you’ve been stuck watching mediocre Big 10 football all your life. We understand, it has to suck. But don’t try and spread your misery to us.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
by Billy Gomila on Jan 31, 2011 10:55 AM CST up reply actions
I never said the Big 10 rules were unethical,
Dumbass.
Why are your ethics stretched to 25 signings? Why did you cave? Like I said you could be even more ethical than you already are if you go root for D-III schools. WHy are you afraid to be even more ethical than you are currently?
“There is something unethical about schools oversigning.” Oh, I thought you knew what it was. Now it’s some amorphous “something.” Thanks for the ambiguity but no I won’t switch to the Big 10 rules. Mainly b/c I don’t have that power, idiot. But to answer your question I’m “scared of” is becoming a mediocre, second rate conference who had to create an ethical issue to stay relevant around BCSCG time b/c you got your asses handed to you in Bowl Games. If you can’t beat ’em, sue ’em!
I must create my belief system lest I be enslaved by another - Thomas Paine
by Curtis Bleaux on Jan 31, 2011 5:18 PM CST up reply actions
Yes,
because Georgia is so morally superior.
In the history of college football, no player, no coach, no guru, compares with [Les] Miles’s masterful incorporation of applied chaos theory and time relativity into strategic game planning. Simply put, the man is on another level. A level many don’t or can’t understand. Genius.
We agree, breaking the law is bad.
Did Georgia, as an institution, deny that? Did it defend bad behavior and promise to continue doing it?
Oversigning isn't illegal either
It’s not against a single NCAA rule. So how is it “bad behavior” other than your own belief that honoring a contract by its very terms is unethical.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
Who's with me?
Well this is one time that the SouthernMan is 100% behind the PittMan.
Excellent solution and completely logical. The NCAA will, therefore, never consider it.
(Although lamb chop makes a good point – I’d say a non-disciplinary cut would keep the six in tact so if he just couldn’t cut it but Team B thinks he can then he can transfer or stay and get his education. If it’s a knuckle-head type cut (RP) then he’s just out but can still transfer to a one year non-compete school…?)
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
I would have no problem with a guy like RP keeping his scolarship
He didn’t do anything dozens of others haven’t. Those guys just weren’t as highlighting. Kick him off the team but let him stay in school for free if he wants.
Father. Husband. Lawyer. Nerd.
by Richard Pittman on Jan 30, 2011 5:32 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I agree
That’s a good solution. Although Richard Pittman has a good point up there—it might just be a theoretical problem but not one in reality. I think that Pittman’s system is the best one I’ve heard if you add in an exception for disciplinary cuts.
This might solve some problems but...
1) 6 years is too long. 5 is reasonable. There’s no reason for even a student playing football to take 6 years to finish an undergraduate degree.
2) Why should a kid cut for discipline (i.e. pot, robbery, assault – the sort of things kids are normally cut for – keep a scholarship. There’s something with that).
3) If you allow coaches to cut players for discipline then some might abuse this, negating some benefits of the proposal.
4) Unless I’m missing something, this doesn’t fix the problem of oversigning in the spring. Saying that a school shouldn’t accept an NLI from a player that might not make the grades won’t actually fix the problem. There’s no way the NCAA can make this NLI binding on a program if the kid signs it in January but doesn’t meet minimum requirements to be accepted by the school. Which means you’ll still have the same basic problem.
5) There is no way in heck this will ever happen.
Good standing with the university
I think your concerns are adequately addressed by requiring the person to stay in good standing with the university. Someone involved in serious crimes usually is not allowed to stay in school.
As for thesis years thing, it is not at all uncommon for some people to take a long time. Both my brothers graduated in six. Some people can’t maintain constant enrollment. Some change their majors midway through. Also I’m deliberately making sure players can go to school even after their eligibility is up. Some can even try out for the NFL and still have time to come back if it doesn’t work out.
Father. Husband. Lawyer. Nerd.
by Richard Pittman on Jan 30, 2011 5:30 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I don't know Richard
This doesn’t do anything about spring oversigning.
You’re right about serious crimes.
But what’s to stop a kid who’s not going to play from basically quitting after a year and getting 5 years of free education.
And 6 years is still ridiculous. This proposal would give any kid that gets a scholarship offer 6 years of free education, room, and board even if they never even started fall practice.
Moreover, while some students do take longer for various reasons, no athlete with a full ride should take 6 years no matter how often they change their major. Under this proposal, there is nothing to stop a student from taking a handful of classes every semester without making real process to graduation.
I don’t really have a problem with the current system. Even the (sometimes?) abused medical scholarship still leaves a student the opportunity to graduate. The real problem I see is the long term medical harm football players might incur. I don’t know that colleges do anything about that.
I just don't see any kid playing it that way
These kids are highly competitive and love football. They’re going to put forth the effort. And if one does that, then it means your coach did a poor jobof evaluAtion in the first instance. Sure, some will give up after a year or two, but these are the ones I think should be protected.
Father. Husband. Lawyer. Nerd.
by Richard Pittman on Jan 30, 2011 7:13 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Easiest loophole I can see
Is that coaches and programs (and players, and, until the Cam Newton loophole is closed, their families) would very much take advantage of not signing an LOI.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
You would still count dowager the 85 limit
And you wouldn’t get the protections that come with a letter of intent.
I hate being limited to mobile Internet. I’m not a good thumb-typist.
Father. Husband. Lawyer. Nerd.
by Richard Pittman on Jan 30, 2011 6:13 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Not to mentionthe weird autocorrects
Father. Husband. Lawyer. Nerd.
by Richard Pittman on Jan 30, 2011 6:30 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Yeah
But you’d also be able to jump from school to school if you chose. I could see that getting exploited similarly to what we see with some of the big-time basketball players that play for several different high schools.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
by Billy Gomila on Jan 30, 2011 6:43 PM CST up reply actions
Billy, that's what I was trying to get at earlier...
I think Richard has a good idea, but he severely underestimates students (and their parents) willingness to abuse the system.
Yeah, and let me say that I think he's got the right idea
I’m just not very confident it would be executed so cleanly.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
by Billy Gomila on Jan 30, 2011 6:48 PM CST up reply actions
Under my proposal you couldn't jump from school to school
Unless you were cut. Walkons wouldn’t even get that benefit.
Father. Husband. Lawyer. Nerd.
by Richard Pittman on Jan 30, 2011 7:16 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Again, that sounds like a problem of screening in the first instance
And if a coach senses he is being played, all he has to do is NOT cut the player, but suspend him while leaving him on the 85 person active scholarship list. He couldn’t go anywhere except under normal transfer rules.
Father. Husband. Lawyer. Nerd.
by Richard Pittman on Jan 30, 2011 7:28 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
But Richard,
What coach will “not” cut a player but not use him – thus effectively losing a scholarship?
Coaches don’t have to be poor screeners to accept athletes that later choose to act out in ways that screw up programs and their own lives.
I like your attitude, Richard
But this might be leaning a bit on the idealistic side.
by wadewilson on Jan 30, 2011 7:13 PM CST via mobile reply actions
But what about it wouldn't work?
Father. Husband. Lawyer. Nerd.
by Richard Pittman on Jan 30, 2011 7:16 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
The player has too much power.
I guess my biggest gripe is a 6 year athletic scholarship that no longer requires athletic activity. I don’t think LSU should be forced to pay for the education of someone like Chris Garrett, who obviously wasn’t good enough to play college ball. I like the year-to-year renewable contracts, I really do. If they are really that bad and there are some coaches that abuse them that horribly, I think these high school athletes and their families will pick up on that before long.
I also have a slight issue with #6. I’ll agree with you that I don’t think it’s fair that a student-athlete can be cut from one school and have to sit out a year before playing, but I think the school should have a little bit of say in what that player does. It seems like, if a player decides he just doesn’t like the team or the coach when he gets on campus, he could perform poorly enough to be declared inactive, then leave and go play for another school. I knew a guy that tried to play college ball at 5 or 6 small colleges in about a 3 year period. Every time he transferred he told me the former school’s offense was stupid and no one respected his talents.
Why, why, why,,,,,,,,
what are you three years old?
Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet? Are we there yet?
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
Question
I am a Michigan grad going to grad school in LA. I hadn’t really heard about oversigning until the Les Miles rumors. I have looked at oversigning.com, and found it to be annoying in its moral indignation. While I am concerned that some kids may get a raw deal because of oversigning, I don’t see how it is a grave moral wrong if it is made clear to both the student and his parents before signing that the scholarship is on a year by year basis, and that the school may oversign. I thought the post a couple days ago in response to oversigning.com was both persuasive and informative. Plus, I always appreciate seeing someone smack down a tOSU grad. However, I have a question/proposal:
Would simply moving back National Signing Day decrease the need for oversigning? Many schools don’t provide normal applicants responses on admissions until March, and don’t require deposits to be paid until April 1. Moving the NSD would provide student-athletes another opportunity to take the SAT/ACT, and another quarter of school to get their grades to the necessary level. It seems that one of the arguments used in defense of oversigning is that coaches oversign expecting some of their commits to be declared academically ineligible. By pushing back the day, coaches would have a better understanding of who will be eligible and who won’t be, thus decreasing the need for oversigning.
It would limit but not solve...
… Remember, LSU lost one ofits signees last season because he signed a pro baseball contract on the very last day he was able to, but after he had enrolled at LSU. I think Zach Lee absolutely made the right choice (enjoy those millions, buddy), but he counts as someone LSU “forced out”.
And, as Tuberville pointed out, you still want to give an offer to a guy who want qualify just to show your commitment to him as he goes the JUCO route. That player isn’t bound to you, but he is more likely to come back once he graduates JUCO.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
x
I don’t see how it is a grave moral wrong if it is made clear to both the student and his parents before signing that the scholarship is on a year by year basis
If that is going to be LSU’s official policy, fine. Why don’t they come out and make that very clear? Why do you assume that they make it any clearer to recruits?
Why don’t you call on Michigan to adopt this policy
When a school is oversigned, its employees are automatically compromised regarding their ability to give objective advice to students considering possibly detrimental transfers. This is inescapable and a violation of very basic business ethics.
You should probably research the topic a little more before you just dismiss it because you don’t like Ohio State fans.
If that is going to be LSU’s official policy, fine. Why don’t they come out and make that very clear? Why do you assume that they make it any clearer to recruits?
Because we have you to promote that fact. It’s not “LSU’s official policy” it’s the NCAA’s official policy.
Why don’t you call on Michigan to adopt this policy
As an NCAA-member school, they have. Michigan athletic scholarships are also one year contracts. I don’t ask for Michigan to anything else because I believe as an independent school, they can do what they want. I have no interest in meddling in other school’s AD. I don’t care what they do.
When a school is oversigned, its employees are automatically compromised regarding their ability to give objective advice to students considering possibly detrimental transfers. This is inescapable and a violation of very basic business ethics.Of all of the inescaplably stupid things you have posted, this might eb the dumbest. Any school recruiting an athlete is “automatically compromised”. Their interests aren’t the same, and the school is trying to intice the player into a contract. The business does not represent the other party entering the contract, and it would in fact be a vioaltion of business ethics to put the other party’s interests ahead of the business. an employee who put a third party’s interests ahead of their employers is in fact in breach of their fiduciary duty to their employer. Contracts work because each party protects its own interests.
You should probably research the topic a little more before you just dismiss it because you don’t like Ohio State fans.I’ve got nothing against OSU fans. I like the fact their mascot is a nut.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
Poseur & Ranger100
Poseur may suspect that I created a bogus account with the name Rangers100 just so I can post silly things to mess with his mind. I didn’t. I wrote the bogus email from Trent Johnson to Les Miles on the subject of beating Arkansas and auburn, and I wrote the acerbic talking points about our crappy 3-0 team after the MSU game, but I couldn’t come up with this sort of claptrap if I smoked my weight in pot.
By the way, this is an UNOFFICIAL LSU fan blog. That means it’s not sanctioned or sponsored by the university. When SBNation guys post comments here, it’s not official university policy. We don’t write school policy. We just write our opinions.
Try not to be a moron.
1) Not sure what you think I assumed about what LSU says to players, because I didn’t assume anything. In that quoted text I was simply stating my view.
2) Disregarding the fact that Michigan can’t oversign as a member of the Big 10, I obviously hope and expect Michigan to inform recruits of the details of any scholarship offer they extend. If it came out that Michigan was not appropriately informing its players, I think the entire Michigan fan base would be outraged.
3) I can see the possible conflict of interest in a coach who needs to open up a roster spot for a recruit advising a player on a transfer. Don’t see how it applies to my post, but I think your point is valid.
4)Its pretty obvious that I haven’t dismissed the issue seeing that I just posted a possible solution to the problem. Seeing that my school has lost 7 straight to our hated rival, I am going to take any opportunity to poke a little fun at the Buckeyes. Its a college football message board, I thought the point of these things was to crack jokes about your rivals?
by NOLAWolverine on Feb 1, 2011 11:20 AM CST up reply actions
Haven't read..
The whole post or all the comments.
But I just fail to see why an athletic scholarship needs to be a 4 year promise. That would simply be unprecedented in the way of scholarships. There isn’t a scholarship in the country that you’d get to keep just for showing up.
I understand that blurs the lines for athletics some… but I just don’t get why this notion exists (a lot of people think it is that way and others think it should be).
Paul, that's my basic objection, and I'm glad you stated it that clearly
If a smart young math student gets a scholarship he’s not guaranteed it for 6, or 4 years no matter how much work he does. A kid shouldn’t get that sort of offer just because he can run fast and jump high.
I honestly think the system we have now is pretty good.
As someone who once lost a performance based scholarship...
and by performance I mean academic performance, I would be “ethically” against (oh noes! sarcasm & seriousnesses at the same times!) a player having a 6-yr. ride who just happens to remain in good academic standing, i.e. passing.
This is what I don’t get about why revoking a scholarship is somehow ruining the kid(s)’ lives. An Academic scholarship is also performance based, i.e. performance in the classroom. If the kid couldn’t get into school on normal admissions means (& I’m not counting scholarships given by companies or endowments or groups who donate money for a scholarship fund who can nominate their scholarship winner at their whims), if he is to be given a 6-yr ride, he better be a 3.0+ otherwise I don’t see how it’s any different in revoking an annual athletic scholarship to my academic scholarship that was revoked my freshman year for poor academic performance though in the grand scheme of things, it was one of the better things to happen to me (k*ss, my a$$, McNeese!), but that’s neither here nor there, except to possibly show that just because you have “bad” things happen to you as a 19-yr old, it doesn’t mean your life is over. Again, Heaven forbid a 19 or 20 yr old. kid who lost an athletic scholarship have to oh, I don’t know, look for work or something like the rest of the majority of college kids or kids who don’t attend college. Oh, the harsh reality of it all.
I must create my belief system lest I be enslaved by another - Thomas Paine
Agreed
I, too, had my scholarship revoked based on poor academic performance. I’m guessing the local news wouldn’t have done a sob piece for me if I went to them and complained about the school taking it away.
I think the issue is that for academics it’s a little more black and white (basically can be charted on a Cartesian plane. Whereas, since our only real knowledge of football performance is what they do or don’t do on the field (and their indiscretions off the field), it’s harder to judge. I understand that there is definitely some blurring of the lines, and that a football coach/program can pretty much easily say… “Oh, this guy wasn’t meeting the expectations of his scholarship” and pull it.
Chris Garrett proponents will say he was wronged. Others of us say he wasn’t meeting the expectations (and there were rumors swirling about his lack of dedication/weight gain etc.).
Now, it does suck when a kid, who from all reports is a good kid, will be on the rough end of that judgment because his talent isn’t stellar and a kid who is endlessly talented will be extended continual 2nd chances (Ryan Perrilloux).
It’s a murky business. I’m not all in on the process of oversigning, but I also don’t think the students are quite the victims they are made out to be.
I also don’t think coaches look at it like… “Oh we need these 8 guys, so we’ll sign them and then just kick 8 others off.” Being around the kids every day, there’s a very good chance they know of kids that are unhappy and may already be considering leaving… so maybe they nudge them in that direction and trying to help them find a good landing spot thereafter.
I, too, had an academic scholarship...
… and I took more than four years to graduate. They didn’t extend the scholarship for me. I knew the terms to keep my schollie, and the deadlines involved. I didn’t uphold my end of the bargain.
I think there’s something different in the outlook of people in the South. The idea of “fairness” isn’t an authority we often appeal to. Life isn’t fair. I think our value system is more in line with “the contract is the contract.” I know in law school I far preferred contract classes over property classes because I didn’t give a damn about “equity”. The contract is what it is. You are bound by its terms. No moral judgments (other than the moral judgment in the sanctity of contracts and how cool freedom of contract is).
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
Hadn't thought about it in that sense...
but yes, Poseur, that makes perfect sense. My outlook is definitely shaped on an upbringing where the mantra “life isn’t fair, no use complaining about it b/c nobody wants to hear it” was drilled into my head at an early age.
I must create my belief system lest I be enslaved by another - Thomas Paine
by Curtis Bleaux on Jan 31, 2011 10:53 AM CST up reply actions
Ditto
My parents were big on 2 explanations. 1. Life isn’t fair, and 2. Because I said so.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
by Billy Gomila on Jan 31, 2011 10:56 AM CST up reply actions
x
There is a huge difference in being a lazy, spoiled, drunken college student who can’t keep a B-average… and a player not beating out all but the very best at his task, often due to injuries.
Yes there is...
but there is a difference in a college student battling depression, alcohol abuse & family issues.
So, in conclusion, fuck you & your ivory tower you sit in.
I must create my belief system lest I be enslaved by another - Thomas Paine
by Curtis Bleaux on Feb 1, 2011 12:06 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, that's the thing also...
What Super Ethicsman makes it sound like is “cutting” people happens often, every year & it happens at every school & what you said in your last paragraph is more than likely what actually happens.
Kids aren’t dumb & naive these days. Some of these kids have been groomed & marketed & shopped around since they 1st showed signs of athletic ability in Pop Warnern. There are kids that have been eyeing schools since junior high. Personally I think the Garrett’s used the situation & the piece on ESPN as free marketing to be de facto recruited knowing someone from the land of Super Ethics or the Pure Olympian Amateur Land known as the Big 10+2 might give him a pity scholarship out of it or at least consider him.
But I’m not sure how that works though. The “victim” ended up at yet another unethical oversigning school in Ole Miss. Does that make him stupid or some sort of Stockholm Syndfrome sufferer or just as “unethical” as the rest of us schmvcks?
I must create my belief system lest I be enslaved by another - Thomas Paine
Sorry, above post is supposed to be re: to Paul's reponse to mine
It is UNETHICAL to not have an edit function! Lulz
I must create my belief system lest I be enslaved by another - Thomas Paine
by Curtis Bleaux on Jan 30, 2011 10:11 PM CST up reply actions
Another note on attrition
I think there is a saturation point. Nobody’s reached it yet, but I do think that if you take it too far — you’re just mowing through players like an NFL training camp, that’ll catch up to you. If the wrong high school coaches feel like you’re mistreating players, it won’t play well on the recruiting trail. Plus, there’s also the APR to think about, especially if these players are leaving school.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
The problem with this is Title IX
Your inactive scholarship list will basically be a drain on the school’s number of scholarships for other mens sports. Keeping them on scholarship for 6 years also kills the ability to give scholarships to other mens sports. The reason why there are no SEC mens soccer teams is b/c of Title IX. For every one scholarship you give to a man, you have to give one to a woman. The # of scholarship for women is limited b/c there are a limited # of womens’ sports at the collegiate level compared to men. 85 scholarships go to football, when there isn’t an equivalent huge team sport for women to balance it out. Now you want to introduce even more than 85 for football, technically an unlimited number of inactive sports scholarships. This will never work.
I like where your head is at in trying to think outside of the box, but the answer isn’t making scholarships permanent for six years or increasing the number of scholarships. The answer is holding teams more accountable and exposing the worst programs at oversigning and cutting players so that they know what they are getting into when they sign their letter of intent.
I think it is also worth pointing out that players do not have to sign a letter of intent. They can just show up to school and receive their scholarship on the first day. The players do have power in this process, they just sign it away on signing day b/c of convention and they think they have to. True, without signing they aren’t guaranteed their spot in the fall, but they also have the option of going anywhere until enrolling in school without signing.
Considering changing my name to RebelBlackBearsConception
by ColRebsLastBreath on Jan 30, 2011 11:23 PM CST reply actions
There are two really good points here
1) The government will treat any scholarship over the normal 85 as a men’s scholarship and argue there must be 1 scholarship for a woman for each of these. How many men’s sports should we cut to make sure no football players have to leave school for 6 years?
2) The players get a huge benefit out of signing a letter of intent. If they break their leg – or whatever, their scholarship is guaranteed.
Until recently, the arguments about signing has said they should move to earlier in the year (to avoid the various hat changing signing issues) than later…
Title IX
Surely it is the elephant in the corner.
What bothers me so much is that the Bayh Amendment to Title IX explicitly states that proportionality shall not be a test for compliance. So what’s the test for compliance?
You guessed it, proportionality. The enforcement of the law runs against the letter of the law. I’m not as anti-Title IX as most sports fans, though it does bother me to no end that this law gets credit for women making strides in sports and not, you know, the women themselves. Not to mention the changing attitudes of society.
To make Pittman’s proposal work, you’d have to have a football exemption for Title IX compliance. Which I’m not entirely opposed to, given that it’s the straw that stirs the drink. Football, unlike most programs, makes money. Yes, MAC football loses money, but the AQ conference teams, are making a lot of it.
Football uses 85 scholarships, which is a lot to offset, and there is no women’s sports equivalent. No school is going to kill the goose laying those golden eggs, so the sports that get cut are things like men’s wrestling. Exempting football coupled with more rigid enforcement of compliance would help tertiary men’s sports while at the same time protect women’s sports.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I agree with you Posuer
On both the argument that Title IX is incorrectly applied and that there should be a football exception to it. But the odds of either happening actually represents a negative probability.
I may be
a racist yankee, but I will try to be less of a troll than Rangers100.
I like a fair amount of this proposal. The concern others have expressed about “lazy kids” seems misguided to me. If a few get a free-ride quality education on the athletic department dime, that’s not so bad (though some reasonable academic restrictions like a minimum GPA might be necessary).
A “free-market” solution might be to allow schools to offer however many years of scholarship as they want. Schools would be able to officially give out 4 or 5 year scholarships at their discretion to whomever they pleased. Those schools who wished to continue the current 1 year renewable version or offer 1 year scholarships to walkons and lazy people could do so without penalty.
The simplest incremental solution to the problem might be to make the NLI a binding one year commitment for both sides. This change would require every prospective player to have passed all the academic hurdles (both NCAA eligibility and school admission) before signing day. If not, he would have to spend the year at a JUCO (or in high school). The school would have to guarantee at least a one year scholarship and have an open spot to accept the NLI (so any transfers or “unspecified violation of team rules” would have to occur before signing day). This would eliminate a lot of the fuzziness in the numbers and at least allow the players to know where they stand. Signing day would need to move to April or May to accommodate this change, but that would be a good change as it would allow the high school seniors to have more decision time and current players who were leaving more time to find a place to go.
Both sides have spewed a lot of crap on this issue, but I think there’s a fair amount of common ground that everyone can agree about. No one wants another Elliot Porter situation (though I’m glad it worked out for him eventually). Neither of these changes would prevent a coach from encouraging a kid to transfer or outright cutting him and they certainly wouldn’t stop whatever competitive advantage oversigning might allow, but I think it would be more fair to the players by giving them more options in recruitment and having the NLI guaranteeing a spot if only for one year.
There's no rule against schools making their scholarships binding for four or five years
You could certainly make that part of the recruiting pitch. And I’m sure some coaches say “well Coach X cut these players, but I’m loyal to my guys and never cut players like Coach X does.” The problem, as has been pointed out, is that the recruits generally think they’re God’s gift to football and that getting cut is something that happens to “someone else.”
Don't Panic.
by 4.0 Point Stance on Jan 31, 2011 9:42 AM CST up reply actions
I think this is a good idea
A few speed bumps have been pointed out like the title 9 point.
Another point is that this plan would put richer schools at an advantage. Sure an extra 10 or 20 “inactive schollys” may not mean much to an SEC school but could Boise keep up with that? What about Houston or Southern Miss?
Seems like we’d be pushing the have nots furher down the pole.
It’s still a really good idea though. May need to cap the inactive schollys
"I know the quarterback has a strong arm, but...I mean the ball's not gonna outrun ME" --PP7
by LSU Jonno on Jan 31, 2011 8:00 AM CST via mobile reply actions
Count me as "not with you"
I just don’t see such a big problem in things the way they are now. In fact, I would only change one thing.
I know its been said before, but with academic scholarships…
1. Students lose them all the time for ‘lack of performance’ – why should an educational institution afford athletes an exemption to meeting the standards of their scholarship?
2. Folks have to compete for a limited amount of scholarships and sometimes don’t find out very late if they won the scholarship or not.
3. There is no academic scholarship that compares to an athletic one. None, period. I had one of the best scholarships LSU offers and all I got was tuition, set up with a student job, and some money for books. Athletes get tuition, books ( for use – they must return them but honestly, who cares ), room & board / housing assistance, a monthly stipend, and placement with offseason jobs that pay nicely for the position ( construction laborer position in the late 90s making ~$14 / hr… may father paid me $8 max! ).
The only change I would make is put in a deadline close to national signing day for universities to ‘honor’ an offer. If they cannot back the offer with scholarship ( assuming one was promised ), then at that time, the prospect is free to sign elsewhere up until another such date. Basically remove any shock from grayshirt requests.
I agree with Xanathol
I know a number of people feel like colleges athletes are getting a raw deal – but I just don’t see it. They are privileged members of a college community – with no bills and a very different college experience than most kids.
Letting kids out of letters of intent if they are asked to take a greyshirt would be a good compromise.
Greyshirting
I like the idea, a few of my friends have been very successful in different college sports after greyshirting.
This thread is bizarre.
There is a set of rules that is already prohibits oversigning with no problems.
Why the desperate searching for a bunch of untested ideas when there is an easily enacted solution that is well-tested and has no problems?
Something else is going on here…
No there isn't
Rule book’s right here slappy.
Oversigning remains legal by the NCAA’s bylaws.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
by Billy Gomila on Jan 31, 2011 9:31 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Your entire argument here is based on fallacies.
Facts are, Porter was given a choice to grayshirt with us or go elsewhere – which he did! Chris performed poorly, so poorly that he was cut on a team begging for a QB to step up.
So, sorry to break your heart, but as far as oversigning goes, LSU doesn’t do it.
If you are going to be simple minded enough to say attrition is part of oversigning, then your parents failed you in that you must not know how the real world works. No, not everyone is ‘special’ and no, not everyone is a ‘winner’. The person that is better wins – in football, in getting that academic scholarship, in competing for a grade in the classroom ( yes, in some classes there are only so many As, Bs, etc to go around and you compete for them ), in getting that job offer, etc.
If you are afraid you may not be able to keep your grades up, take the tech school scholarship instead of the MIT one. If you are afraid you can’t cut in football, take the Big 10 scholarship instead of the SEC one.
All Fundamentalists arguments are the same
I am right b/c I am right. Again, C. S. Lewis:
“Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron’s cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.” -
Plus, H. L. Mencken also applies here:
“The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule.”
I must create my belief system lest I be enslaved by another - Thomas Paine
by Curtis Bleaux on Feb 1, 2011 12:14 PM CST up reply actions
Ranger100 = Texas_Dawg
On oversigning. He’s a disingenuous troll over there too. He never has a well thought out argument, he never responds when someone destroys his stance, he only sits there and goes "UNETHICAL UNETHICAL" like some kind of oversigning Rain Man.
And he really loves his ivory tower of academics, and how there should NEVER be a standard for athletic competition. He’s all about scholarship welfare.
He says he’s a Georgia fan, but I suspect some very closeted Ohio State love.

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