Racism, Jordan Jefferson, and Southern Football
by Poseur on Oct 3, 2011 10:09 PM CDT
in Football
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Print"Sunlight is the best disinfectant"
-- U.S. Supreme Court Justice Louis Brandeis
The word "racism" has been floating around in our little community recently, due to the non-quarterback controversy between Jordan Jefferson and Jarrett Lee and the unfortunate booing incident of this weekend.
I think there's no surer way to end a civil discussion by throwing out the charges of racism, so let's get it out of the way first. I am in no way charging any person who has posted a comment on this site, or any other LSU site, as being a racist. That's just asking for a screaming match and will in no way lead to a productive dialogue, which is my goal here. So, please be civil.
However, I do think racism is a factor in Jefferson's treatment. I certainly don't think it's the only factor, but I don't think we can ever have an honest dialogue about those other factors without first dealing with the elephant in the room. So, I am taking Louis Brandeis' advice and shining the light on the issue so we can all discuss it in a rational, civil, and non-accusatory manner.
*Ed Note - there's also the curious case of Josh Booty, another white quarterback. I've never met an LSU fan that has anything positive to say about Booty, but when he actually was the QB, we felt sort of resigned to hoping he lived up to his potential. He never faced the same sort of booing as the others, which is odd, because as time has moved on, people have largely "forgiven" Howard while the grudge against Booty only grows by the year.
I put "forgiven" in quotes because the person who needs forgiving is not Jamie Howard, but the jerks who sent him death threats.
That said, I do feel the booing of Jefferson is different. Howard and Lee were booed purely for on-field performance. Also, the boos for those two were reactive, not proactive. Lee threw a pick, or even a slightly bad pass, he got booed. Same with Howard. They did not get booed for simply walking on the field. Jefferson did.
Jordan Jefferson just went through a pretty awful ordeal. Now, we can argue his level of culpability, but he certainly didn't deserve to have his name so publicly dragged through the mud. The charge of second degree battery grows more absurd by the day. Jefferson nearly had his football career, and his reputation, ruined by a misdemeanor (which he hasn't been convicted of). He hasn't exactly been exonerated, but his version of events seems much closer to the truth than the original narrative.
He is back on the team, but he has lost his starting job. His teammates, who have publicly supported him, even more publicly celebrated his return. However, the message was clear, Jefferson is now the backup to Lee. For a misdemeanor charge, Jefferson was suspended four games and upon his return, demoted on the depth charge. Say what you will, he has certainly suffered consequences on the team for his actions.
Miles called on Jefferson to make his 2011 debut in a situation that, well, clearly called for a quarterback sneak. We weren't going to be coy, the ball was on the six inch line and it was fourth and goal. Everyone in the stadium knew that if Miles went for it, he was calling a QB sneak. So instead of using his immobile QB, he tabbed the quarterback who is bigger and indisputably a better runner. From a football standpoint, this was no more controversial than putting in a three tight end set on the goalline.
The crowd didn't exactly erupt in boos. But the boos were loud and audible on the broadcast. It wasn't a majority of fans booing, but it was a fairly large percentage. Large enough to be heard on TV, anyway. This wasn't one or two morons. The boos quieted, but did not stop when Jefferson scored a touchdown.
I'm not saying that these people booed solely because Jefferson is black. On the other hand, I do not believe Jefferson would have been booed for simply entering the game were he white. Now, I can't prove that, obviously. It's just how I feel.
The reason I feel this way is because there is an ugliness to the comments about Jefferson among LSU fans that just feels wrong. Racism, at times, is like pornography. You can't define it but you know it when you see it. We can all spot the obvious racist, but what about the more subtle kinds of racism? What about the racism that lurks in our own hearts?
Big-time college football, and many of our most popular sports, are entertainments predominantly performed by young black men for crowds dominated by white men. There's nothing inherently racist about that, but it certainly feels odd when you step away from it and try and look at it as an outsider. And I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to ask why this is.
Hell, why is the fan experience seen through the prism of, well, white people? This blog is written by a bunch of pasty white guys, so I'm not excluding us from this. The sports blogosphere is predominately white males writing for other white males, but so is old school sports journalism.
Then again, there is no barrier to entry blogging. Go to blogger, set up an account, and get to it. You don't even have to pay for hosting. It's not like there is a cabal of bloggers keeping other voices out. It's just that the most popular blogs seem awfully white. Once again, I'm not saying it is wrong, but why is this?
I hate lazy sports terms which are just racial code words: athletic, blue collar, natural talent, scrappy, etc. I try very hard to avoid these terms as a synonym for a player's skin color.
Then again, I'm not going to sit here and say I don't absolutely love Jacob Hester because he was so damn scrappy. Now, is my love of Hester because he had so many big runs and that he was so great at running to the sticks or is it because he's a white running back, and good white running backs are getting rare.
I never consciously rooted for Hester because he is white. I never had that conversation with myself. I just always liked Hester for the way he played. But was his race a subtle thing in the back of my mind that made me predisposed to root for him? I'd hate if that were true about me, but maybe it is. I can't with 100% certainty say it isn't.
Then again, as many of you know, my favorite player on the team right now is James Stampley - a guy for whom the term "blue collar" should have been invented. He's a former walk-on who earned a scholarship the hard way and is now a vital piece of the team as a ferocious run blocker. He's also pretty clearly not a white guy.
I honestly don't know what the point of this piece is, which is bad, because it is pretty long already and that just violates some basic rules of writing. Oh well. The issue of race is so large, so all-encompassing in American society, it's just bound to tie us up in knots.
It's difficult for us to speak honestly and openly about race. Let's face it, there's a lot of baggage there, particularly for Southerners. Jim Crow wasn't all that long ago. I didn't live through it, but my parents did. It hasn't entirely passed into historical memory. I do feel that this history has forced us, particularly the South, to confront racial issues head on. I've mentioned it before, but now the only appropriate form of "racism" is that against Southerners, who have grown accustomed to seeing themselves portrayed as dumb, ignorant, racist rednecks throughout pop culture.
To quote the Drive-by Truckers, such is the duality of the Southern thing. And maybe that's the price we pay for the sins of previous generations. While I find the portrayal of the South as a haven for racists infuriating and, well, incredibly offensive, the only way to combat this portrayal is to shine a light on the rest of us who do not resemble this stereotype at all.
We must keep the dialogue open. When something happens that might have racial overtones, it does us no good to wish it away and pretend it doesn't exist. We have to talk about it precisely because it is uncomfortable to talk about.
Jordan Jefferson wasn't booed solely because he is black. But the depth of the hatred aimed at Jefferson goes far beyond "he isn't a good quarterback." Every time someone called him a thug, I wondered if they were thinking of a different word. Who could think Jefferson, who has been a team leader and generally been a good person during his time in the intense spotlight, was a thug? The whole incident, and the commentary from many corners of the fanbase, just set me on edge.
LSU's fanbase has no more racists in it than any other large fanbase in the country. You get a big enough group, you're going to have some morons. But we need to do our best to drown out the morons and have a serious discussion about who we are as fans.
I don't have any answers, but I do have a flashlight.
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My two cents
The following brief example negates the racism issue as far as I’m concerned: Tonight Tyrann Mathieu gets in a fight at Shadys with the exact same scenario as JJ’s event. Therefore he spends the next four games suspended, but then is reinstated. Gameday he walks out onto the field for the first time. What happens? …….100% I guarantee….There is not ONE “boo” but actually wild jubilation. It’s ok to have been through what you’ve been through…if you’re a star whose fans cherish, value and need even, one could argue, your play.
by Tiger Eye on Oct 3, 2011 10:35 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
The Jordan Exception
No one cares what you do if you’re great. Race is only an issue for we mere mortals. Mathieu wouldn’t get booed because he’s such a great player. But what about, say, Barkevious Mingo? He’s a good player, but he doesn’t have a t-shirt about him.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
Good point
However, I do think Mingo probably is good enough to not get booed. Other than a Mathieu, Ware, Montgomery, and a handful of other players, I’m not sure who assuredly wouldn’t be booed. And perhaps I’m just looking at this from my narrow own little world view…but I have several friends, from different walks of life, some mutual and some not, who were at the game and I’m embarassed to say booed JJ. I am literally still not speaking to one of these friends because of the argument we got into over his booing. (My stance: pathetic and disgusting no matter why you boo) But the conversation with all of them was virtually the same: “Maaan they shouldnt have put him in he sucks, he’s gonna mess with Lee’s rhythum, etc. etc.” My point being, again in my narrow world view/circle of peeps I know who booed, they would’ve booed if JJ was white too.
by Tiger Eye on Oct 3, 2011 11:03 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
or what about
hatcher? or in previous years…mccray…hookfin….
by TDTGodfather on Oct 4, 2011 10:06 AM CDT up reply actions
I call bullshit on the T-rex comparison.
There have already been “tiger fans” call him a thug for all the noise he talks during the game. Not to mention, JJ is a QB. You would be full of it if you said people don’t look at the race of the QB more than any other position.
Les Miles is my coach. You think you can show me the mouth of madness? I've worn madness' hat, and the fit was perfect.
by Matt 'n' The Hat on Oct 3, 2011 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions
"...all the noise he talks during the game."
You dont think people would’ve said similar things if he were white? I don’t know the things you’re saying he said that illicited the thug response, but I have to believe alot of people wouldnt take kindly to whatever the “noise” is…whether he’s white or black.
by Tiger Eye on Oct 3, 2011 11:25 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
It was more of an argument against Mathieu not being booed if he were to do the same thing.
From the comments on message boards of lesser sites, he isn’t held in such flawless regard as his argument implied.
Les Miles is my coach. You think you can show me the mouth of madness? I've worn madness' hat, and the fit was perfect.
by Matt 'n' The Hat on Oct 4, 2011 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions
And how can you call bs on that comparison?
Argue other facets please, but if JJ were held in the same regard as Mathieu, no way he gets booed. No way.
by Tiger Eye on Oct 3, 2011 11:57 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Nah. Matt you're argument has no support.
1) “Thug” is not codeword for black." And quite frankly, it’s may be racist to suggest it is. I’ve heard plenty of white athletes described as thugs for on/off field behavior.
2) Why exactly does the race of the QB matter more? Before Michael Vick went around killing dogs for the fun of it, 1000s of white kids in atlanta went around wearing jersey’s with his number. Now those same kids and their moms call him a thug. And they booed him when he showed up in Atlanta. Not because of his athetlic play or because he was black, but because of his criminal actions. Now, there was a racial element to the treatment of Vick, but arguably it came as much from the black community in Atlanta as from white people.
stop by TD.com and rethink that thug statement
There’s plenty of codewords over there and that’s one of them for cowards to hide behind while still being able to scratch that racist itch.
Yes, there are some, probably most, that use thug without meaning anything more.
But there were definitely some folks over there that had the vapors from their poor old fashioned sensibilities being hurt by some brash talking young black boys that ain’t representin LSU like they should.
Wait, I'm sorry...
Did you use the rant to support your argument? Does not compute…does not compute.
I could care less what’s said over at the rant. This is supposed to be the LSU sports website for people who are not reactionary morons. Thug is not codeword. Could it be used as a code word by some? I suppose so. But the use of Thug is not going to be what tips them off. Jonathon Brown, the Illinois linebacker who looked both ways to make sure the refs weren’t watching before using his knee to hit the groin of another player on Saturday was acting like a thug. That would be true regardless of his race, which happens to be black.
I'll give you that
but you cannot deny that there are racists out there who have moved on to other words since their preferred words are now shunned and end up getting them in trouble.
Of course not - but so what
That’s like saying I can’t deny there’s a seamonster in the gulf. There might be. (there probably is, with all the stuff oil out there ;-). There might be racists who use other words. So what. If they are really racists, I doubt they’d work that hard to hide it.
After 10 years in academia and now as a professor – I am tired of hearing about “racially conscious” language and wording. A lot of times, it’s just bogus made up work to publish articles and get tenure. It trickles down into the public consciousness and makes it more difficult to be a race-blind society. I think a lot of our worry about race actually makes race a bigger problem than it would be otherwise.
I think we have illustrated the point here
the racist component is most likely not a part of most boos or is minor compared to other boos, but it’s there. And I don’t think it hurts to talk about.
I think that's fair
I think one of the biggest factors in booing is groupthink. One person booing makes it easier for another person to boo. I certainly don’t think it was a calculated plan bu Klansmen or anything.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
by Poseur on Oct 4, 2011 9:10 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Of course it hurts to talk about it like y'all are . . .
Because you’re just making blanket, unsubstantiated generalizations perpetuating negative thought cycles. You say, “of course there are racists in the South” without specifying any behaviour, words, populations or other factors or groupings, much less evidence, to support or clarify the staggering generality you just made. Then some young person comes along and reads that, and then sees (or experiences) something bad happening to or being said about a black person. Thanks to the mass-perpetuation of a totally undefined generalization, how is that young person supposed to come to any other conclusion than the fact that what he just saw (or experienced) must be racism? That creates generation after generation raised on the perception that all negative experiences of people of any other race besides white can only be the result of racism. Aside from the problem of perpetuating the same generalizations for generation after generation, this has the far more disastrous effect of diverting attention (and of course, resources) from investigating and curing the actual causes of so much of that suffering (poverty, crime, substandard educational systems, socially destabilizing social policies, etc.).
I honestly believe that if it were made a crime to claim a racist comment or action had taken place without naming the racist publicly, the improvement in race relations in this country would surge at a pace that would stun us. If you deny the cowards the ability to hide behind unsubstantiated generalizations and unspecific allegations, and force them to confront those they would accuse, then you would clear the debate for those actual cases of racism that truly deserve attention and action. It would also teach future generations exactly what racism looks, sounds and smells like, so they would be better prepared to recognize it and call it out themselves.
by King Joey on Oct 6, 2011 12:53 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I agree
It trickles down into the public consciousness and makes it more difficult to be a race-blind society. I think a lot of our worry about race actually makes race a bigger problem than it would be otherwise.
Thanks.
I think that what the civil rights movement originally wanted was a race-blind society. That’s certainly what I want. And to get that, we have to be, quite frankly, much less race conscious. Which means not looking for “racial connotations” everywhere.
You may be right
But there are also pedophiles who use “waifish” and “fresh” as codewords for the children they want to molest. Your argument basically levels the accusation of child molesting at everyone who uses those words, too. If you are going to discuss racism, use names and actual accusations, or you are no better than the “racist” cowards you claim to be referencing. Insisting that racism exists in a population because there are members of that population that use “code words” to express their racism and proving it by citing how often they use those code words . . . well, that’s straight up circular logic, and it’s completely flawed.
You know who the racists are? The ones who say bad things about other people because of their race. You what accusations of racism are? Bad things some people say about other people. So the next time you want to suggest that someone’s comments are “racist”, ask yourself this: if you could see the person typing the comment, and that person was black, would you still be suggesting that his comment was racist? If the answer is no, then guess what? You’re a racist.
by King Joey on Oct 6, 2011 12:41 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
never heard a the term "thug"
whilst describing a white guy. just sayin.
by TDTGodfather on Oct 4, 2011 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions
I have
People called Mallett a thug all the time.
2011 LSU Accolades:
"Imperial Intergalactic Overlord Barkevious Mingo" -Andy Staples
"If Alabama's defense is a boa constrictor, slowly sucking the life out of opposing offenses, LSU's is more like a goon that throws the offense into a burlap sack and starts beating it with a stick." -Matt Hinton
"Oregon’s Chip Kelly is generally considered a coaching mastermind. Miles toyed with him here Saturday night." -Dan Wetzel, Yahoo Sports
"I don’t want to say that I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson…..but I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson." -Les Miles
Mettenberger was called a thug frequently
Again – the plural of ancedotes is not data.
i wasn't asserting data
i was asserting my experiences…
by TDTGodfather on Oct 4, 2011 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes, my point, and I think Jonno's
is that your experience cannot be extrapolated to the broader public. It doesn’t prove anything.
and your opinion does?
i’m simply agreeing with poseur’s assertion of the veiled meaning of the word “thug”. you disagree. it’s cool.
by TDTGodfather on Oct 4, 2011 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions
Just because white people get called thugs
doesn’t mean that it can’t also be used by some people as a code word for “black guy I don’t like.” I agree with poseur, and TDT that it is.
You have been mad and drunken, furious and wild, filled with hatred and despair...but so have we - Thomas Wolfe, inadvertently commenting on college football.
how about...
this seems noteworthy of the thug moniker.
Or think about thug being used in mafia context along w/ goon. That brings to mind italian thugs.
I love this post
And have no further constructive comments. I’d be happier if there had never been a need to even write it but here we are and kudos to you and the whole ATVS community for tackling this head on. I want to put it past us so we can get back to cheering for the whole team to succeed.
by ORtigerfan on Oct 3, 2011 10:36 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
Something Zimm said kind of kick started this post in my mind. I agreed with his general premise, but wanted to expand on it, as well as my disagreements. We do have some unsavory elements in our fan base, but that doesn’t make us unique or special.
But I do think 95% of Tiger fans ARE cheering the whole team to succeed. Those who are obsessed with player battles to such a point they take it personally… well, I don’t even relate to that, even if there weren’t racial overtones. The name on the helmet and all that.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
If you get the interweb-Pulitzer remember me!
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions
You hit the thug comment head on.
It takes a lot of balls to write something like this. It shouldn’t because all you’re doing is speaking the truth, but you probably will catch shit for it. Bravo dude.
Les Miles is my coach. You think you can show me the mouth of madness? I've worn madness' hat, and the fit was perfect.
by Matt 'n' The Hat on Oct 3, 2011 10:37 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
The Truth?
Billy expressed an opinion which as a major writer on this site is a requirement. However, “speaking the truth” requires a certain amount of factual data to back up the opinion. He used the Brandies excuse of “knowing it when he see’s it.” This is what opponents use in the political arena all the time. Reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend who said that a certain political movement was racist. He admitted that he had no evidence and that he could point to no actual position or comment to prove his charge of racism, but since he disagreed with them then they must be racists’. Billy wrote an opinion that could only use conjecture to make his point. I support his requirement to do so as well as his right, but we should be more careful about throwing that particular charge around. I made the comment to a friend after the 2008 election that now no one could call me a racist ever again just because they disagree with me. I guess we still have a way’s to go on that. BTW fans who boo a Tiger are not fans, but A**holes.
by USMCTiger on Oct 4, 2011 6:03 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
I'm glad that while discussing this topic that we have a common ground
that Tigers fans that boo are not fans. they are assholes.
Once, again, please read my comment below
I never said, nor did I ever imply, that everybody that booed was racist. In fact, I later added multiple comments echoing Poseur’s sentiment, that it wasn’t the sole reason, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t part of the discussion.
People jumped to those conclusions on their own.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Thanks for proving my last point.
Les Miles is my coach. You think you can show me the mouth of madness? I've worn madness' hat, and the fit was perfect.
by Matt 'n' The Hat on Oct 4, 2011 10:40 AM CDT up reply actions
First, who are you to call a Supreme Court justice's decision an excuse?
Second, “i know it when I see it” is a Potter Stewart quote, not a Brandeis quote.
Be the change you wish to see in the world.
Follow @semicorrect
But we need to do our best to drown out the morons and have a serious discussion about who we are as fans.
This little light of mine…
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
One other thing I noticed.
I was at the game and the brunt of the boos did seem to come from the south endzone where there was a large UK fanbase. Not nearly all of them, but take those out and I don’t think it would have been nearly as loud. Anyway.
Les Miles is my coach. You think you can show me the mouth of madness? I've worn madness' hat, and the fit was perfect.
by Matt 'n' The Hat on Oct 3, 2011 10:49 PM CDT reply actions
interesting observation
Do camera crews typically aim their mics at the visitor section? I noticed in the auburn @ usce game the only thing I ever heard was “block that punt” on usce 4th downs
by ORtigerfan on Oct 3, 2011 10:55 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
They were in that endzone for the sneak so the mics would have been aimed at them.
I haven’t watched the replay so I don’t know exactly what yall heard but, like I said, it came from all over the stadium. Just mainly from the south endzone.
Les Miles is my coach. You think you can show me the mouth of madness? I've worn madness' hat, and the fit was perfect.
by Matt 'n' The Hat on Oct 3, 2011 11:13 PM CDT up reply actions
there was a mike for UK's band and section
but I sit in the South and the boos came from all around and definitely did not seem to be weighted heavily towards the UK section.
Like I said, that's what is sounded like from where I was at in the lower west near the student section
could have just been the way sound funnels in the stadium but It sounded like it was coming mainly from that direction to me.
Les Miles is my coach. You think you can show me the mouth of madness? I've worn madness' hat, and the fit was perfect.
by Matt 'n' The Hat on Oct 4, 2011 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions
That makes me feel better
Seriously…I hope that was the case!
by Tiger Eye on Oct 3, 2011 11:06 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I want to be clear
Because there seems to be some ambiguity on my opinion on the topic — I do not believe that everybody who booed Jordan Jefferson, or supports Jarrett Lee, is racist, nor did I ever say that. As I said in comments to the UK postgame stories, I don’t even think it has that much to do with the barfight situation — most of the LSU fans that don’t like Jordan Jefferson don’t like him because they don’t think he’s a good player. Now, you could argue that’s an even worse reason to have such an intense personal dislike for a guy (and if you read the posts or listen to people talk, for a lot of them it very much IS personal), but that’s another topic for another time.
But I agree with Poseur’s statement. For a portion of the fan base involved, race is absolutely a part of the equation, and that was my point. And I think it’s naive to pretend that it isn’t involved in this equation to some degree. How big of a degree? I don’t know. I would hope not too much, but I do know that it’s still out there.
Also, I object to the pasty statement. I can’t speak for the rest of y’all but I am a bronzed Adonis.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
This
— most of the LSU fans that don’t like Jordan Jefferson don’t like him because they don’t think he’s a good player.
by Tiger Eye on Oct 3, 2011 11:10 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
But you did . . .
You see, Billy, what you are saying is that there are people out there who booed Jordan Jefferson because they are racists, without any evidence or supporting data about any one of them at all. What that means is that you have just condoned anyone accusing any individual who booed Jefferson as a racist. Because they will have exactly as much to support their accusation of a specific individual as your comments provides about any of the multitudes you have labled as racists.
This is the problem with this discussion in our society today. We have been conditioned for so many decades to simply accepting generalizations like “obviously there are some racists” and “clearly some racism existed in some of [x] group”, that we have forgotten to demand actual evidence of racism anytime (until the accusation lands on us, or very close to us). When we perpetuate that style of discussion, we perpetuate the freedom to level that accusation at anyone. How much less justified would anyone be in calling you a racist than you are in calling some members of that crowd racists? Do you have any specific information about those members of the crowd that make them more likely to be racists than you?
It’s not about whether you or they (or “they”) are in fact racists. It’s about the fact that racism is a very serious allegation. In addition to being hateful, it can also seriously damage people’s lives, relationships and careers. Accusations like that should never, ever be tossed around as cavalierly and lightly as our modern society (especially the media) tosses around generalized accusations of racism. Think of it this way: if someone had written the sentence, “obviously, some members of the Tiger fan base are child molesters”, would you have reacted any differently?
by King Joey on Oct 6, 2011 1:05 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
What exactly constitutes "supporting data" here?
That’s a completely facile argument.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Easy
Things like people saying, “I hate that they put that [n-word] at QB,” or other inappropriate use of racial slurs, people expressing a generalized contempt of people of a certain race (or races) due to their race, or other easily recognizable racist behaviours. That would constitute “supporting data”. There is nothing facile about challenging the use of generalizations applied to groups (and “some of the people booing” IS a group) of people without substantiation.
A few points
1. Racism, while portrayed as a southern trait, is actually more prominent up north – it just doesn’t get the pub it does down here largely thanks to the North’s moves in the Civil War and the effect that has had conceptually in the years to follow. I’ve lived as far north as Minnesota; northerners pointing at southerners are hypocrites. And let’s not forget that racism is not a one way street – I’ve had friends of another race insist I not be seen giving them a ride to their house else I may not make it out the neighborhood unharmed because of my race – I wish I was making that up. And that was right there in Baton Rouge.
2. I do know that some people boo’d as they felt JJ was ‘given Lee’s TD’, much akin to how things went in the Archer days of Hodson and Guidry. 6 inches doesn’t require a running QB. That is on Les’s head and while he may not care what the fans think of his decision there ( nor should he ), he could have planned JJ’s introduction much better than that. Would JJ still have heard boos? I am certain he would, but maybe not as many.
3. I also know some people boo’d because they don’t like JJ – never have, never will – and yes, part of that is bc of his race & position. And its sad. Really, really sad. I’m sorry JJ or anyone has to endure that, especially from a supposed ‘fan’.
by Xanathol on Oct 3, 2011 11:12 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
for the millionth time, it's not Lee's td.
It’s LSU’s.
by LSUJOSHUA on Oct 4, 2011 8:13 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Please note that was not my opinion
but is something that people have said. And in a way, I can understand their point to a degree – not that it condones booing.
Holy Christ this is a stupid ass statement:
6 inches doesn’t require a running QB.
LULWAT?
Perhaps (likely) JJ had stronger legs to push ahead for a sneak. And his running ability must be taken into account on the perimeter, potentially making the sneak easier.
Do you even know anything about football?
Respect the bucket, son.
Disagree
It’s not a stupid statement. I don’t think a QB sneak requires much running ability, it’s just the push of the offensive line and the quarterback falling forward (at least at that distance). If that were the case then why wouldn’t people be putting running backs in all of the time for QB sneaks? Or the backup QB if he’s a better runner?
I understand both sides of the argument (and I’m glad JJ got the TD…maybe that’s why Les put him in?), but I have NEVER seen a QB get subbed in just to run a QB sneak prior to last Saturday. Which is why I don’t think it’s a football decision, but one to get JJ confidence, get him going, etc…I can’t really phrase what I’m thinking but I like the fact that JJ got in and got a TD, it was a good welcome back.
by Squash on Oct 5, 2011 7:53 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I hate to disagree with you, but...
I am getting very tired of hearing the race card thrown around concerning Jefferson. I simply do not think it is a factor. If it was, wouldn’t the same racists that are booing him be booing other black players on our team?
Many years ago, I had a female colleague that I have thought about a lot since this JJ stuff started. When someone agreed with her, it was because she was brilliant. However, if your disagreed with her, it was because she was a woman.
It seems to me that many are throwing out the race card for similar reasons over the JJ drama. People that believe JJ is our best QB have have no statistical basis for arguing that he is better than Lee, so they throw out the race card.
I believe the people that booed when JJ entered the game were directing their ire at Miles because they do not understand his affiniy for JJ in spite of his poor play for long stretches, his body language on the field when things aren’t going well, and his unwillingness to ever accept responsibility for his poor play when a microphone is in his face. The fans do not trust Miles to stay with the QB that has been moving the offense and instead play the guy that has made our offense hard to watch for the last two seasons.
It is difficult for me to believe that a fanbase that loves TM7, PP7, countless other black position players…or a fanbase that loved Rohan Davey and wanted him to play over his white counterpart would be booing JJ because of his skin color.
by Houseplants on Oct 3, 2011 11:13 PM CDT reply actions 5 recs
Yeah, I do think there are some who may be like that (as there are in all fan bases as Poseur pointed out),
but I think this has more to do with a) JJ never really coming into his own; although, he was getting closer to that from the Bama game on last year and b) the fight and the fact that JJ should have not been in it or even at the bar (as has been pointed out, he may not have been in a fight after all so it may just be breaking curfew which all should learn from at the least). I got the sense that the majority of LSU fans were over being concerned about who was the better qb going into this year with JJ being the clear starter (aside from the segment that has always favored Lee no matter what even when he did not show last year that he was ready to be the starter). Overall though, I think the majority of LSU fans were hoping JJ, the clear starter, would have a great year.
It is a shame what happened (bar thing) because I think JJ would have had a great year up till now, thank God we had JLee who has had a great year for the most part up till now; also, it is wonderful to have JJ and his experience and ability back. Just like that segment that will hold his skin color against him there are those who will hold the bar thing against him even though he is a good kid who has never been in any trouble up until now. Can’t please everyone JJ, but just know there are plenty of Tiger fans behind you also—I am as I am for all the Tigers. Geaxu Team! Geaux Tigers!
Reporter: What would you say a Greg Studrawa offense is like? Stud:
"Attack and be very physical…fly around…attacking, come after you and come after you and come after you…." Me: I love this answer.
GET TO THE RIM HEAT (and SKY)! ATTACK THE PAINT!
by mjtig on Oct 3, 2011 11:43 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Rec'd it
The fans do not trust Miles to stay with the QB that has been moving the offense and instead play the guy that has made our offense hard to watch for the last two seasons.
I agree with you entire comment but this statement pretty much sums it up.
If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten-George Carlin
by AcquiredPanic on Oct 4, 2011 4:27 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't think
it was JJ that made our offense hard to watch-that distinction lies squarely on the shoulders of GC. Whomever was QB the offense just didn’t click with the current players.
And this is absolutely what I am talking about
his body language on the field when things aren’t going well, and his unwillingness to ever accept responsibility for his poor play when a microphone is in his face
People talk about opinions and conjecture, and this is the height of it. These negative personal attributes are being thrown at Jordan Jefferson because people don’t like the way he plays football, period. Neither you, nor I, know anything about how he interacts with his teammates or how he treats them. But I do know that his teammates eagerly welcomed him back on the team, and have vigorously defended him after all the booing on Saturday. I think that says a hell of a lot about how they view his actions and his “body language,” and what they think about him personally, And I have a really hard time believing they’d feel that way if he this selfish guy that never takes responsibility, as is so often said or implied by the Humanoids.
Applying these sort of insults to Jefferson based on the way you view his “body language” would be like me saying “well Jarrett Lee throws off his back foot all the time and recoils from any contact like he’s scared, so I guess he’s just a wuss.” That would be incredibly foolish on my part to say, and so is pretending that you know anything about Jefferson’s personality or his relationship with his teammates.
And this notion that Miles is just playing Jefferson out of some personal preference is complete and total fiction, and it passed up ridiculousness about 5 exits back.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
by Billy Gomila on Oct 4, 2011 8:29 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Nah
How many times have posters here said, “Lee’s body language looks bad, he looks scared to play,” or something of that nature. Was that code for, “Lee is a wussy white QB who can’t take a hit?” No. It was a reasonable reaction to the way he looked on the field. When JJ throws a ball and it bounces twice before hitting a receiver and then he tosses his hands in the air as if to say, “What did you do wrong?” – it’s not racist to say his body language is poor. Both of them have had body language issues in the past and both have been criticized for it by the commentators on this blog. Are you guys racists for that? Of course not.
Okay, you clearly need to read what I just wrote again
Because race isn’t a part of it. In any way, shape or form. It doesn’t make you racist to say those things, its just baseless speculation. And we’re back to the FACT (see what I did there), that his teammates certainly don’t seem to see Jefferson (or Lee) in either of those lights. And they know a hell of a lot more about Jefferson or Lee than we do.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
No...my point is that commentators and posters on this blog
have made all sorts of assumptions about both JJ and Lee based on their body language. Until this week, I don’t think anyone has ever suggested any of those comments about body language had anything to do with race- which I agree with – they did not. Now all of a sudden…there are “code words.”
Also Billy, recognize that in a posting board like this every comment isn’t directly related to the post above. I don’t think Miles played JJ out of personal preference. You don’t either. Your comment about it wasn’t directed at me. Your post didn’t say anything specific about race and body language – but the whole forum today is about race – so it seemed rather relevant.
Sorry, but
My whole point is that it’s not okay to make assumptions about any player’s character, or lack thereof, based on their play (and let’s be real, it’s more about the play than the body language — if Jefferson threw a long TD pass right after he “threw his arms up at a WR” nobody would care what he did the play before). I don’t do it, and just because some other people do it about Lee doesn’t make it okay to do about Jefferson.
That’s the whole point.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Ahh, Ok. That was not clear to me.
I agree. But it’s been done a lot around here.
As I said earlier (and last year) I think that between JL and JJ we have one good quarterback. I think we are better as a team when both play – but I also think doing so has its distinct disadvantages at times. I’m hoping that Coach K worked a miracle there.
I don't think myself, Poseur, Paul or PK have ever done it.
But if there’s some old post where we do, by all means call me out on that.
And here’s another thought — not directed at GT or anybody personally, just a good rule to live by — it’s one thing to say “I think it looks like Jefferson/Lee is acting like X based on Y.” I don’t have a huge problem with speculation so long as you admit that’s what you’re doing. Hell, when I’m describing a play I generally try to make sure I include words to that effect, such as “it looks like that the quarterback was expecting the WR to keep going and not break off his route” or something like that.
I do have a problem with people saying “JJ is a selfish brat based on X.” Because unless you have first-hand knowledge of the situation, you don’t know.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Sorry - I wasn't clear
Until this week, I don’t remember any commentator posts about race. But there have been a lot the last few seasons about body language – both about JJ pouting after plays and all of JJ’s weird body tics. Someone (can’t remember who) – had a whole thing going at one point about predicting Lee’s play in a game based on how often he tugged on his shoulder pads during warmup.
As for your “rule to live by.” I agree. I certainly didn’t intend to do that. Maybe the internets screwed up my meaning again. ;-) I think both QBs sometimes give body language that looks like they have a particular negative attitude. But in general, I’m skeptical of my ability as a fan, or others ability as commentators, to read too much into body language. I’m sure I have weird non-verbal cues when I am giving a public speech or teaching that are both distracting and have nothing to do with how I am feeling or thinking about my teaching.
The shoulder pads thing is more of a running joke with Wee and Pat on the podcasts
Not really to be taken seriously lol.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
I know it's mostly a joke.
But it’s commentary on body language. And actually, I’ve never listened to the podcasts – I’ve just seen it on the blog.
I talk about Lee and his shoulder pads all the time...
And I’m implying he’s a little white ninny.
Eye right blahgs.
Applying these sort of insults to Jefferson based on the way you view his "body language" would be like me saying "well Jarrett Lee throws off his back foot all the time and recoils from any contact like he’s scared, so I guess he’s just a wuss."
I don’t know your definition of body language, but I am certain that it is different from mine.
I am talking about his negative facial expressions, slumped shoulders, etc when things are not going well. There is absolutely nothing about body language that infers black, white, purple or gold. A leader on the field usually does not let poor plays affect the confidence that they portray through their “body language”. Leaders “never let ’em see them sweat”.
I never said that it infers race
And frankly, comments like that only exacerbate this whole notion of the “race card.”
But when his teammates don’t seem to infer it the way you do, does it occur to you that maybe your assumptions are wrong here? Who do you think has more insight into the situation, you, watching on TV or however many hundreds of feet away in the stands, or the players and coaches that are actually interacting with the kid?
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
But when his teammates don’t seem to infer it the way you do, does it occur to you that maybe your assumptions are wrong here?
I cannot be sure how the players respond to it…but neither can you. How do you know how the players dont seem to infer…? I know that the crowd responds, and I think most football fans, players, and coaches would tell you that the crowd has a huge impact on the game. I also think it is possible for the players to unconciously perceive bad body language and allow it to effect them. However, this thread is really about the fanbase’s feelings about JJ.
All that I know for sure is what I see when I watch the game. Over the past two years, I have observed a disfunctional offense, and this year I have seen an offense that is functional. The departure of Crowton may have an impact, but Crowton was not the one throwing balls at receivers feet or unable to hit receivers in stride on screens and flares, etc. Four years ago, JL did not play well and the fans turned on him much moreso than they have on JJ (IMO)…it had to do solely with his results on the field, as he was generally thought to accept full responsibility for his play and never blamed receivers or made excuses.
I think much of the fanbase does not want JJ because he has played poorly in long stretches, he has never accepted any responsibility for his poor play, and has even suggested that he was playing well (after a 4/20 effort against a directional school), and he appears to sulk and blame other players when things aren’t going well. I submit to you that his race, creed, nationality, etc do not factor into this with >99% of the fans that would rather have Lee as their QB.
by Houseplants on Oct 4, 2011 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm going by what the players themselves say
They celebrated JJ’s return on Wednesday and immediately took to defending him from the boos after the game. So yeah, I do think I can be pretty sure about how the players respond to it. I don’t think they’d be so happy to have Jefferson back, or tell the fans off for booing him, if they thought he was a petulant brat.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
And once again
he has never accepted any responsibility for his poor play
If this is the case, answer the question. Why do his teammates like him and want him around? Maybe it’s because the way you see him isn’t the way he actually is.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
players' response
I’m going by what the players themselves say
I haven’t ever seen the players say anything about JJ’s body language. I do agree that they are glad to have him back and want him to be a part of the team etc…but I haven’t seen anyone ever explicitly defend JJ’s body language.
Explicitly? No
But if he were the player Houseplants described, I have a really hard time believing he’d be so popular.
The point is, body language CAN be misinterpreted. And if you think a player’s body language says something that makes him seem pretty detestable, yet his teammates love and support him, maybe you’re interpreting his body language wrong.
It goes back to what I said in another comment about simply saying that you don’t think JJ is a good player not being enough for people.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
But if he were the player Houseplants described, I have a really hard time believing he’d be so popular.
This thread started out talking about the opinions of the fans regarding JJ and implied that their apparent dislike of him was based (at least in part) on racism.
My comments about JJ have to do with what fans think of him. The players may have a very different agenda than the fans do. Many of the players are probably good friends with JJ, and their opinion of him on the field could be colored by their friendship off of the field. The vast majority of the fans do not know him…they are simply fans of the program and many of its players.
I guess I could go where you went with your opening comments and suggest that many of the players support JJ because they have a racial bias. Since I do not know any of the players and have no evidence to support such a claim, it would be ludicrous of me to suggest such a thing. And further, I think suggesting something like that without clear evidence is irresponsible and promotes that that most of us detest…continued distrust between people of different racial backgrounds.
by Houseplants on Oct 4, 2011 4:37 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Huh?
Now you’re just rambling. First of all.
This thread started out talking about the opinions of the fans regarding JJ and implied that their apparent dislike of him was based (at least in part) on racism.
No, this thread started out with Poseur saying that racism was part of the discussion. If you read the post the third line says “I am in no way charging any person who has posted a comment on this site, or any other LSU site, as being a racist.” You should at least be able to understand that by now.
My comments about JJ have to do with what fans think of him. The players may have a very different agenda than the fans do. Many of the players are probably good friends with JJ, and their opinion of him on the field could be colored by their friendship off of the field. The vast majority of the fans do not know him…they are simply fans of the program and many of its players.
So you agree with me, that since the players don’t seem to think JJ is that bad of a guy, your opinion that he has an “unwillingness to ever accept responsibility for his poor play” might be a little misguided and wrong?
And then I have no idea what you’re talking about here:
I guess I could go where you went with your opening comments and suggest that many of the players support JJ because they have a racial bias.
Because this was my opening comment, and it doesn’t contain one single word about the players supporting JJ based on a racial bias:
Because there seems to be some ambiguity on my opinion on the topic — I do not believe that everybody who booed Jordan Jefferson, or supports Jarrett Lee, is racist, nor did I ever say that. As I said in comments to the UK postgame stories, I don’t even think it has that much to do with the barfight situation — most of the LSU fans that don’t like Jordan Jefferson don’t like him because they don’t think he’s a good player. Now, you could argue that’s an even worse reason to have such an intense personal dislike for a guy (and if you read the posts or listen to people talk, for a lot of them it very much IS personal), but that’s another topic for another time. But I agree with Poseur’s statement. For a portion of the fan base involved, race is absolutely a part of the equation, and that was my point. And I think it’s naive to pretend that it isn’t involved in this equation to some degree. How big of a degree? I don’t know. I would hope not too much, but I do know that it’s still out there. Also, I object to the pasty statement. I can’t speak for the rest of y’all but I am a bronzed Adonis.
Look, I get it. You think Jordan Jefferson is a bad quarterback, and because of that, you attach whatever bad qualities you can to his personal character. He’s a bad player, so he must be a bad guy too, right? Well, the players that actually do know him personally, not only want him around, but think that the people who booed him on Saturday should stay home and not come to the next game. They know Jordan Jefferson a whole hell of a lot better than you do, and they seem to think he’s a person worth having around and worth defending.
But I’m sure you know better, based on his body language, right?
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
We appear to both have problems with reading comprehension...
Look, I get it. You think Jordan Jefferson is a bad quarterback
Yes, this is true. Just one man’s opinion.
He’s a bad player, so he must be a bad guy too, right?
Please show me where I said he was a bad guy. I don’t know him and would not presume to characterize him and any personal way.
But I’m sure you know better, based on his body language, right?
The comments I made about his body language have nothing to do with what type of person he is off the field. They had to do with what type of leader he is on the field, and partly explain why many fans do not like him as the QB.
My comments about him not accepting responsibility for his play on the field are hard to dispute. As one example, he actually said that he thought he played well after going 4 for 20 for 60 yds in a game during his 2nd full year as a starter. I have now idea how the rest of the team perceives these types of comments from their QB, but I know how I perceive them, and I suspect many LSU fans agree. Again, my opinion…and I accept that you have a right to your differing opinions.
by Houseplants on Oct 4, 2011 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Actually, let's be clear here
You have no idea. You have no idea what kind of teammate he is, you don’t know what he tells his teammates, and you don’t know what type of context that quote was given in or what the thought process behind it. So yeah, there’s a hell of a lot of things to dispute.
And in that dispute, I’ll take the word of Jordan Jefferson’s teammates over some random guy who thinks he knows enough to judge the character of a guy he’s never met.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
What happened to the civil exchange of opinions?
Your opinion about the inter feelings of his teammates based on public statements is also far from iron clad. I’m sure they like him just fine. But in what decent team would they say otherwise? You may be right, but there is no need to continually brow beat opposing views based on your perception.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Zimm
If you read that exchange and came to the conclusion I’m in the wrong here, I don’t know what to tell you.
Continuously insisting in your theory when obvious holes are pointed in it them and refusing to address them are far from a civil exchange of ideas.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
I realize it is just your style
but a civil exchange does not mean that if they disagree with Billy Gomila they should be shouted down and then deleted if you don’t like it. Your positions are often more strident and conclusory than those you attack. The above seems a good example. The point made was not that hard to get, and simply disagree with…in a civil manner.
To each his own.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
FIrst off
I never deleted ANY of your posts. I can’t speak for any other moderators here, but I can tell I sure as hell didn’t.
And really, you read all of that and all you got was that I was attacking somebody that disagreed with me? The person who referred to my “opening comments and suggest that many of the players support JJ because they have a racial bias.” As though there’s anything resembling that in my statements ANYWHERE in this thread?
I’ve had a couple of disagreements with other people in this thread that I think are pretty civil. HP is the one shouting people down. I’m the one pointing out that his argument is crap. If that bothers you, I don’t think I’m the one with the problem here.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Ok Billy.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 8:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow, a total misquote...
The person who referred to my "opening comments and suggest that many of the players support JJ because they have a racial bias."
Wow, you took that comment totally out of context and entirely changes the meaning of what I said.
If I attributed comments regarding our fanbase being racist to you incorrectly, then you have my apologies.
I have not "shouted anyone down…I would love to see you back that up.
Okay, here's the whole quote
I guess I could go where you went with your opening comments and suggest that many of the players support JJ because they have a racial bias.
Now why don’t you go and find a single, SINGLE sentence from anything I’ve said in this thread that even remotely suggests that the players “support JJ because they have a racial bias.”
Go find it.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
And when your only defense to your comments
Is to continue to insist upon them, yeah, that’s shouting down. There are plenty of other people in this thread that have defended their positions.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
And when your only defense to your comments
Is to continue to insist upon them, yeah, that’s shouting down
Well, don’t you think maybe you are shouting down a bit yourself?
by Houseplants on Oct 4, 2011 8:20 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Now why don’t you go and find a single, SINGLE sentence from anything I’ve said in this thread that even remotely suggests that the players "support JJ because they have a racial bias."
Why don’t you go back and read what I wrote. I never suggested anything of the sort… here is the exact quote from my post: I guess I could go where you went with your opening comments and suggest that many of the players support JJ because they have a racial bias. Since I do not know any of the players and have no evidence to support such a claim, it would be ludicrous of me to suggest such a thing. And further, I think suggesting something like that without clear evidence is irresponsible and promotes that that most of us detest…continued distrust between people of different racial backgrounds."
So where did I go with my first comment?
Because my first comment was:
I want to be clear
Because there seems to be some ambiguity on my opinion on the topic — I do not believe that everybody who booed Jordan Jefferson, or supports Jarrett Lee, is racist, nor did I ever say that. As I said in comments to the UK postgame stories, I don’t even think it has that much to do with the barfight situation — most of the LSU fans that don’t like Jordan Jefferson don’t like him because they don’t think he’s a good player. Now, you could argue that’s an even worse reason to have such an intense personal dislike for a guy (and if you read the posts or listen to people talk, for a lot of them it very much IS personal), but that’s another topic for another time.
But I agree with Poseur’s statement. For a portion of the fan base involved, race is absolutely a part of the equation, and that was my point. And I think it’s naive to pretend that it isn’t involved in this equation to some degree. How big of a degree? I don’t know. I would hope not too much, but I do know that it’s still out there.
Also, I object to the pasty statement. I can’t speak for the rest of y’all but I am a bronzed Adonis.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
You say right there that you believe that “race is absolutely part of the equation”
All I said was that without real evidence that racism is involved, it is dangerous to assume such. I then went on to say that I could just as easily suggest that the player’s support of JJ had a racial component…but that I would never do that without real evidence.
That is all…no personal attacks on you or JJ or anyone else. Just a personal opinion of mine…that I have as much right to express as you have to express yours.
by Houseplants on Oct 4, 2011 8:32 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
No
You just referred to Jefferson’s lack of accountability and leadership skills, and then crawfished because you don’t want to feel like you’re attacking the kid.
And yeah, race is part of the equation. That’s realistic. Just because you don’t want to be, doesn’t mean it is. It isn’t a big part of the equation — I’ve said several times that it isn’t, and I sure as hell hope its a really small part.
But you bet your ass its a part.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
That should read
I’ve said several times that it is a small part of the equation.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
ou just referred to Jefferson’s lack of accountability and leadership skills, and then crawfished because you don’t want to feel like you’re attacking the kid.
No crawfishing from me. My personal opinion is that he is a very poor leader, for some of the reasons I have mentioned here, and then the Shady gate thing that I have no desire to debate. However, my comments earlier in this thread were regarding why the fanbase does not like JJ as the QB. I said that I think those are the perceptions of the fanbase.
But you bet your ass its a part.
Well, I guess any opinions differing from yours are simply incorrect.
Nice speaking with you king Billy.
by Houseplants on Oct 4, 2011 8:44 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'll simply refer you to Poseur's comment below
As for JJ’s leadership, once again, I’ll take the opinions of the players he actually leads over yours. Sorry that offends you.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
So then you WOULD go there
and claim that race was a part of the players’ support of Jefferson? Wow, you’re kind of losing ground here, Billy.
The fuck?
Do please show where I said any such thing?
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Right here:
And yeah, race is part of the equation. That’s realistic
That’s what you said about the people booing Jefferson. You said that without any personal knowledge of any of them, and made that assertion based on a generalized assumption that you and Poseur have perpetuated here (that there are racist motives in some members of any group). And that assertion — by YOUR application of it — applies equally well to the team as it does to the fans, since by your own admission you don’t actually know what motivations the team has.
Personally, I think it is an offensive and irresponsible assertion to make regarding the team or the fans.
I really want no part of this, but
All I said was that without real evidence that racism is involved, it is dangerous to assume such.
That’s a dangerously unreasonable standard because I can’t imagine what the evidence would be. That’s just a way to say “I will never believe race is involved because it’s impossible to prove.”
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
But Poseur - come on - can't you see
that you’ve made the reverse argument. “I will always believe race is a part because it’s impossible to prove otherwise.” That’s basically your argument. Ok. Well now I’m convinced. Seriously?
by GeauxTiger on Oct 4, 2011 8:51 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
No I haven't
You have assumed as such and I’ve realized I’m not going to make any traction with you on what I’ve actually said, so it’s not really worth the effort to keep clarifying my statements over and over. We’re just talking past one another.
I actually did point to circumstantial evidence – the fact the boos were proactive rather than reactive and the vitriol displayed in online commentary. there was an edge to the boo, and the timing was odd, that hasn’t existed even with Jamie Howard. I pointed even to the history of white QB’s being booed.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
I'm sorry poseur - but you did
You said very clearly – I’m not assuming everyone is racists…but the rest of your post said that it’s basically impossible to know if we have “racial attitudes” or unconscious biases. That’s not an argument. It’s a feeling. It’s basically white liberal guilt. And I think it’s ridiculous.
I haven’t assumed anything about your argument.
And I could care less about the vitriol displayed in places like the rant (which I assume you are referring to). The rant is vitriolic toward everyone but the backup (or in this case, the backup of the backup – Mett).
Again, I think the booing was out of line – but more about the timing of putting JJ in – and the fact that a lot of people in Baton Rouge bought into the Lowrey story about JJ’s actions. If you believe JJ kicked a marine repeatedly in the face, it’s understandable that you might boo him going into the game. And as I recall, a number of people around here did seem to believe that before all the information came out.
Of course it's a feeling
I said — this is how I feel, let’s talk about it. I did not say, this how I feel ,therefore it proves everyone who booed is a racist. In fact, I explictly rejected that concept. Several times.
But you seem to demand complete proof of people’s motives to even have the discussion. I think that’s a hostile position to any sort of dialogue, but that’s fine. It’s your position. But there’s really no sense in me repeatedly having to defend things I didn’t say.
You don’t think we should talk about race. I do. I think open exchange of ideas, and yes, what we feel, has value. You clearly do not.
We are, as they say, at an impasse.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
Two points
First point…
it’s basically impossible to know if we have "racial attitudes" or unconscious biases.There have been many psychological studies on this. Most of which have demonstrated that everyone tested (including black people) have preconceived biases against black people in certain situations. So while on a case by case basis it is impossible to tell what each persons motives were (conscious and unconscious)…I think it is safe to say that most people are usually influenced by race at an unconscious level…And this is something we can’t change. Which to me makes this whole post ridiculous.
Second point…
I think there is clearly enough evidence presented in the comments to challenge the fact that there were conscious racist intent with JJ’s booing. Could it have been consciously racially motivated? Sure. But it sure as hell might not have been, and I’d definitely lean in the non-racist intent category here. That is an opinion. Not a fact.
Having said that, the original piece and all of the comments that followed are really just a bunch of conjecture on a topic that most of us are not experts nor specialists in. We are arguing about people’s intent behind and action, and we don’t even know the people that we are addressing. This is both dangerous and irresponsible, and completely ruining the week before the Florida game.
We haven’t had one single post about the Florida game and it’s already Wednesday. Somehow the rant has managed to move on, but we are still stuck discussing and event that nobody is going to agree on, and that we shouldn’t be discussing on a sports blog anyway.
Peace out.
2011 LSU Accolades:
"Imperial Intergalactic Overlord Barkevious Mingo" -Andy Staples
"If Alabama's defense is a boa constrictor, slowly sucking the life out of opposing offenses, LSU's is more like a goon that throws the offense into a burlap sack and starts beating it with a stick." -Matt Hinton
"Oregon’s Chip Kelly is generally considered a coaching mastermind. Miles toyed with him here Saturday night." -Dan Wetzel, Yahoo Sports
"I don’t want to say that I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson…..but I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson." -Les Miles
by LSU Jonno on Oct 5, 2011 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Poseur
Would you not agree that it is pretty easy to throw out the ole race card, when it really has no place?
Unfortunately, racial bias will always be a part of most equations, but IMHO, racism is a very small part of this particular situation.
Sports have probably been one of the most important venues in our society for racial acceptance. IMO, sports fans are probably significantly more “colorblind” than non sports fans.
Of course racism is hard to prove, but if race was an issue here, why would a fanbase that almost completely embraced Rohan Davey take a dislike to JJ because of his skin color?
It just makes no sense to me.
Race card
Please refer to my comments below on the race card. It’s a long thread, so do ctrl+F for it.
I didn’t bring up race, it had been brought up already and I wrote this article about it. And I think enough people have mentioned it that they can’t all be disingenuous.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
rec'd zimm
Billy is over the top when you disagree with him.
by GeauxTiger on Oct 4, 2011 8:21 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Yeah, I'm totally shouting down everybody else in this thread...
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
unsuccessfully, but yeah BIlly
you have a lot of comments that basically boil down to the statement that the person(s) who disagree with you are morons who can’t read.
by GeauxTiger on Oct 4, 2011 8:26 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Oh really?
Show me where I ever said anybody was “moron that can’t read.”
The only person I’ve really had any beef with in this thread is Houseplants, and all he’s ever had to do was explain how he knows more about Jordan Jefferson’s leadership, or his body language, than his teammates do.
If you don’t want to defend your opinion, why the hell are you posting it here? A lot of other people are doing it and not being shouted down.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
And yet neither you nor Poseur have "defended" your opinion
to the level you are demanding of Houseplants. He has given you reasons (body language, quotes, etc.) why he has the opinions he has. None of it constitutes proof by any stretch, and many don’t even find it very convincing (myself included). But it is far, FAR more specific and relevant support for his position on Jefferson’s ability as a team leader than anything y’all have offered is support for your completely unsubstantiated generalization that there were definitely some racist factors involved in some of the booing of Jefferson. Why post [i]that[/i] opinion if you’re not going to “defend” it?
by King Joey on Oct 6, 2011 1:20 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
someone needs to turn this one green
2011 LSU Accolades:
"Imperial Intergalactic Overlord Barkevious Mingo" -Andy Staples
"If Alabama's defense is a boa constrictor, slowly sucking the life out of opposing offenses, LSU's is more like a goon that throws the offense into a burlap sack and starts beating it with a stick." -Matt Hinton
"Oregon’s Chip Kelly is generally considered a coaching mastermind. Miles toyed with him here Saturday night." -Dan Wetzel, Yahoo Sports
"I don’t want to say that I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson…..but I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson." -Les Miles
Yeah, I'm totally shouting down everybody else in this thread...
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Actually, let’s be clear here
You have no idea. You have no idea what kind of teammate he is, you don’t know what he tells his teammates, and you don’t know what type of context that quote was given in or what the thought process behind it.
Yes, lets be very clear. I have not made one comment about JJ as a teammate or about how his teammates perceive him…because I have no idea.
And in that dispute, I’ll take the word of Jordan Jefferson’s teammates over some random guy who thinks he knows enough to judge the character of a guy he’s never met.
You really do have a reading comprehension problem…I have said nothing about his character. I have only commented on why a large portion of the fanbase do not like his as our starting QB.
If you can’t comprehend this, then it is pointless for me to continue “exchanging idea” with you.
Um
You said that Jordan Jefferson has, and I quote:
unwillingness to ever accept responsibility for his poor play
And you don’t think that’s a commentary on the kid’s character? Bull.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
And you don’t think that’s a commentary on the kid’s character?
No, it is not meant as a comment on his character. It does speak to his leadership abilities as a QB. I have heard him say he played well when he didn’t, I have heard him say that the fans need to be patient with him (in the middle of his second full season as the starter), but I have never heard him say that he played poorly.
What he says to teammates in the locker room is anyone’s guess, but in the media…the stuff fans hear…I think my statement is pretty accurate.
And, BTW, yesterday he was interviewed and he was asked about regrets…he said he has none. Maybe my standards are too high, but I think a team leader would have at least said that he regrets the distraction that his actions have caused to the football program.
He may truly be a great kid, but he hasn’t done himself any favors with the fanbase when he speaks to the media.
Did he actually say he had no regrets
about the offseason? Seriously?
You should go watch the video of the actual interview
The actual quote is:
"I don’t regret anything. Like I said, God puts people in certain situations for a reason. He’s the only person that can control my destiny. He’s the only person that knows my future. So the judgment from a lot of people is not being heard from me, is not being heard from other people. The only person that can judge me in the world is God. So I don’t’ regret any other pain that I’ve been through. I don’t regret anything that has happened to me. I don’t regret the situation that I’ve been in. It happens for a reason and I thank Him for putting me in that situation because I learned a lot from that situation."
That’s a little different than saying “I don’t have any regrets.”
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
So we're back to you thinking you know the kid enough
To judge his skills as a leader, while having no idea what he actually says to the players he’s supposed to be leading.
Okay.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
It really does paint the quotes in a much different light.
I was kind of disappointed in the way some of the quotes were reported.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
The one about him wanting to start again
Is the worst one of all. Because he followed that up by saying he wanted to do whatever it takes to help the team win, but people left that part out. Totally changes the quote, in my opinion.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Enough already
He is a 21 year old kid who has never been in trouble before. So, you don’t like his body language. You are only seeing what the t.v. is showing you. And can somebody here please tell me when the media doesn’t show/play out the most sensational story? (Hello Casey Anthony.) Have you ever thought that maybe they enjoy the battle between the two QBs so they show you the shots that play that angle? Its a story. It keeps you interested, it keeps people coming back. Come on. This was the blog I came to because it was fans talking about the sport, not talking down to each other. I always walked away a little bit smarter. The W on Saturday is all that matters-whomever plays. It takes the whole team, and they seem to be fine. So why aren’t we?
I think that was the point of the article.
Poser did not propose that he had solved the race debate, simply that he would open a thread to let people vent. I find this exchange very helpful as we can all quite with the parenthetical winks and innuendo and the various positions are well laid out now.
This little exercise will let us all get back to sports without some black (no pun!) cloud hanging over the discussion..
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 5, 2011 8:26 AM CDT up reply actions
nah
If it was, wouldn’t the same racists that are booing him be booing other black players on our team?
racists or even people with prejudices like their skill players black and their QB’s white.
by TDTGodfather on Oct 4, 2011 10:17 AM CDT up reply actions
Now you have an unrefutable hypothesis
It doesn’t matter if fans like some black players – “we know” they don’t like the black QB because he’s black. How do we know? We just know. This isn’t an argument. It’s racial guilt claptrap.
you don't think
there’s any truth to that?? i know people that think this way. i’m sorry, should i have said “some racists”?
by TDTGodfather on Oct 4, 2011 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions
There may be some people like this - I don't know
But going down that road you are essentially saying – we can always pull out the race card – because there could always be someone that fits this profile.
i'm just saying
i disagree with the quoted statement. someone can’t say “I’m not racist because there’s hundreds of black players i don’t boo”
by TDTGodfather on Oct 4, 2011 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions
i also feel i need to clarify
i don’t think race was in any way exclusively the flashpoint for the boos. i’m just it plays a part for some, not all.
i felt the need to clarfify because i don’t think it was 100% across the board involved. but the other side of that is that you can’t say it was 100% across the board not involved at all.
by TDTGodfather on Oct 4, 2011 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions
No
What you should have said is, “People named [x], [y], and [z] have said these things because they are racists.” Or, if you really don’t want to make your friends look bad, you should at least say it like, “there are [x] number of specific people I have heard express those feelings myself; thus I know there are at least [x] number who feel that way.”
Expressing an assumption that some other people — people you have not witnessed behave in a racist manner — are indeed racists is a serious and very reckless accusation.
LOL Okay we'll take a poll of the stadium as people leave now
Because clearly everybody’s going to be honest in the discussion.
And people say our assumptions are a joke?
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Are you at least willing to admit that there are racists who watch SEC football?
I guarantee you there are, even though it is a very very small minority within the overall population of SEC football fans. Those people obviously have to accept the presence of black players on their team, but that doesn’t mean they still don’t care to have them in leadership roles like QB or coach.
You have been mad and drunken, furious and wild, filled with hatred and despair...but so have we - Thomas Wolfe, inadvertently commenting on college football.
I've never suggested otherwise. There are also racists who watch Big 10 (or 11 or 12)
football and Pac 10 or 12 football. I’m saying, “so what?” Were some of the people that booed racists? Possibly? But I doubt it was that many. And you don’t have to look far back to remember LSU fans booing a white quarterback (lee) mercilessly. And I suspect that some will again the first time he throws a bad pick.
Reply fail
I was trying to reply to the post by houseplants; got confused cause the thread is so long. Basically, I was trying to address the argument “if you boo JJ but don’t boo the other black players, you’re not a racist.” By that argument, anyone who doesn’t boo every black player (which, obviously, no one does) isn’t a racist, which means that no one at the stadium is racist. That’s an absurd conclusion, which is why I don’t accept the premise.
On your second point about the presence of racists in other conferences, I absolutely agree. I remember reading a quote by Blowhard Bob Ryan about the 80s Celtics where he said “there’s no doubt that the celtics white lineup endeared them to racists in the south.” This article had nothing to do with the south, and the inclusion of that qualifier, in my mind, was bullshit. An all white team in a predominately black league is going to be popular amongst ALL racists. It seemed to me like he threw that in there to somehow imply that there are no racists in Boston, which is clearly idiotic.
I understand people in the South being sensitive about being called racist by Northerners or whoever, because there is a false assumption that there are no racists up north. We know that’s not true. BUT Poseur is not one of those people. He’s an LSU fan calling out a minority of LSU fans. He knows other fanbases have their own problems, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t address the assholes in our own fanbase with the goal of improving our own experience as LSU fans
You have been mad and drunken, furious and wild, filled with hatred and despair...but so have we - Thomas Wolfe, inadvertently commenting on college football.
I don't know about him, but I will admit it
I will admit it to the extent that I have personally witnessed people behave in a manner that convinced me those specific people are racists, and they watch football (SEC, in this case). Though there exists a great deal of evidence to suggest that there are many others that I have not personally encountered, I find it highly irresponsible to level allegations like that without actual evidence to support any specific accusations.
Wow...
racists or even people with prejudices like their skill players black and their QB’s white
Now, there really has been a racist view posted on in this thread.
IMHO, a racist is a racist. A white racist doesn’t like black players, regardless of position. Same goes for a black racist…they don’t want to see white players play any position.
I remember the days when there were very few QBs that were black, and no doubt there was an overtone that black players should not play QB. Now in college football there may be more starting black QBs than white QBs…and in the pretty near future, I suspect that black QBs will outnumber white QBs by a wide margin. Programs and their fans want to win, and I don’t think they care who is playing QB as long as it is the player that gives their team the best chance to win…period.
Does that mean that there are no white racists left that do not want to see a black player playing QB…no. But I doubt that they outnumber the black racists that would prefer to see a black player playing QB.
by Houseplants on Oct 4, 2011 1:53 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
+1 Houseplants
I thought Godfather just inadvertently I"m sure, made one of the most racists statements I’ve ever heard! I applaud your post.
If you really think this:
I believe the people that booed when JJ entered the game were directing their ire at Miles because they do not understand his affiniy for JJ in spite of his poor play for long stretches, his body language on the field when things aren’t going well, and his unwillingness to ever accept responsibility for his poor play when a microphone is in his face. The fans do not trust Miles to stay with the QB that has been moving the offense and instead play the guy that has made our offense hard to watch for the last two seasons.
I think you are giving people way too much credit. And of being on one mind.
Poseur (nor anyone else I have read on here) is playing any race card. They are addressing the elephant in this room.
Respect the bucket, son.
No, they aren't
When addressing “the elephant in this room”, one points to things like a big trunk, wrinkled gray skin, tusks, and huge-ass mammal standing there being an elephant. What Poseur and others have done is akin to saying, “I don’t see anybody with tusks, or a trunk, or wrinkled gray skin, but there’s a giant pile of crap in the corner so we’re just going to assume there are SOME people in this room who are actually elephants!”
by King Joey on Oct 6, 2011 1:33 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think race is a very big fact here
at least not as much as the (perceived) abilities and talents of the 2 QBs. People don’t want JJ in there b/c they think he’s not good but JLee is. They booed b/c they don’t like him as a player. RP did much much worse things in his time here, but since he was a 5 start QB that mostly played well, he was never booed.
Thanks for writing this
I’ve always been suspicious about the venom directed at Jefferson—it just seems out of proportion to either his play or the Shady’s incident (whatever the facts of that turn out to be). There is an ugliness to some of the things that have been said/written about him that I have trouble ignoring. Racism is way more complex that just saying, “see, I like other black people, therefore I can’t be racist!” (Seriously, is that your argument?) Did it play a part in the boos? Probably. It’s part of our lives in lots of ways we probably aren’t even fully aware of. But IMO the bigger problem in this situation is that some of our fans believe it’s okay for them to boo our players in our house.
Even if there were zero racism behind the boos, the boos would still be embarrassing, offensive, and totally unjustifiable. I don’t care if we’re as bad as Ole Miss and we lose all our games—those are still OUR guys out there on that field giving it everything FOR LSU. I’ve heard the BS argument that the boos were meant for Miles, but I’ve yet to hear someone explain how boos can be selectively targeted at only certain people and not others. If you want to voice your disapproval (based on your obviously superior knowledge of our team /eyeroll/), then there are valid and constructive ways to do that. Write an op-ed in the Reveille, stand in the middle of the quad with a giant “Les and Jefferson Suck!” sign, start a bunch of threads on the internet, write an angry letter to Joe Alleva—literally, almost anything would be fine. Just not booing. Never booing. It’s terrible for our players who deserve much better from people claiming to be die-hard fans.
I really hope that everyone who was embarrassed by the booing last weekend will make an effort to cheer louder than ever and drown out the jerks who think their opinion is more important than supporting our team.
by truerjulie on Oct 3, 2011 11:33 PM CDT reply actions 4 recs
Very well said
Too many people don’t understand the difference between being am actual racist & people making racist comments or doing racist things. The latter may just be a person who gets caught up in the mob mentality as a few asserted here which I wouldn’t doubt the possibility of.
Is race the biggest factor in the booing? Probably not. Is race a major factor in the booing? Maybe not. Is race a factor in the booing? I, personally, think so.
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." - H. L. Mencken
by Curtis Bleaux on Oct 4, 2011 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions
This sums up how I feel exactly:
Is race the biggest factor in the booing? Probably not. Is race a major factor in the booing? Maybe not. Is race a factor in the booing? I, personally, think so.
Respect the bucket, son.
I'm sorry to disagree
Most of the people I have talked to really didn’t like that Lee did all the work and JJ got the reward. Those same people don’t like JJ’s attitude on the field and now with the off field situation he has gotten himself into it just compounds. I have heard some whisperings of JJ being compared to Terrell Owens.
I don’t think it has anything to do with race. Bravo to you for having the guts to write this even though I think you’re wrong.
I have heard some whisperings of JJ being compared to Terrell Owens
BIG OLE STEAMING BULL SQUAT!
Not a chance and if “someone you know” is using that as an excuse it is a cop out, punk excuse.
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
Lee did the work and JJ got the reward ....
uggg really? How about the team gets the reward. The team wins and loses together and of all the teams out there, you would be hard pressed to find one with less “individuals”. Maybe it’s not race, but that’s not a good excuse for being upset either.
by tigerarchitect on Oct 4, 2011 12:15 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I know right
are we mad when Ford Breaks off a big run an gets us down to the five and then we pound it in with Ware?
If OBJ makes a great catch to get us to the seven then we throw a fade to RR did Ruben STEAL beckJr’s TD?
The LOGIC is astounding with some of these jedi warriors…
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
by SouthernMan on Oct 4, 2011 12:20 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
i think the reward argument makes a silly case
but plenty of people make that with the running backs all the time. If Ware moves all the way down the field and comes out at 3rd and goal to get a breather and Ford scores – my grandfather says, “man, I wish they’d given that to Ware.”
Don't shoot the messenger
What I posted is what I have heard from family and friends. Now…. It think LEE and Jefferson are pretty much equal with different way of excuting. Jeeferson runs, lee passes. Whatever.. It gets the job done. Now for some reason I seems to want to pull my hair out when Jefferson is in the game and I seem more likely to cover my eyes also. With Lee in the game I seem more likey to forgive his faults and I suppose it is because he had such a rough year in the very beginning. He also takes credit and owns his faults also. He seemly does the right thing. But…. I am not the head coach so whatever I say really doesn’t matter anyway.
so.......
Most of the people I have talked to really didn’t like that Lee did all the work and JJ got the reward.
so those same people probably had a problem last yr when JJ started a drive and lee finished it off? right?
by TDTGodfather on Oct 4, 2011 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Big giant fail.
Then why don’t coaches ever give fat linemen more chances to run in a TD b/c they “do all the work” while the skill players get the reward. This argument about “Lee’s” or any QB’s drives for that matter- if it isn’t racist, it is just DUMB.
There’s no “I” in team, but there apparently is certain QB’s names in drives. All this only proves that most fans, whether racist or not, are stupid or ignorant.
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." - H. L. Mencken
by Curtis Bleaux on Oct 4, 2011 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Wow. That's one opinion.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions
I didnt mean people here specifically
But I do think a lot of people using this “Lee’s drives” thing are creating some strategy template that doesn’t exist. Coaches call plays to try to win the game. I don’t understand how people can think people are overthinking when they claim JJ boos might be racially motivated but yet don’t think anything of creating these cockamamie Rube Goldberg memes about Coach Miles’ reasons for calling plays.
It isn’t about rewarding players, it’s not about loving the run or liking seniority or whatever excuse people come up with. He calls plays that he/the staff thinks gives LSU the best chance to win.
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." - H. L. Mencken
by Curtis Bleaux on Oct 4, 2011 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Bear Bryant has an all-time great line on this
Story was, at some meeting or booster function or something, a lady in the audience asked him about why he called a specific play. His answer:
“Well ma’am, I was trying to win a football game.”
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
He also said that at halftime of the (I think) '82 Iron Bowl.
It was a female reporter too. (Take from that what you will… lulz)
Respect the bucket, son.
If it was, wouldn’t the same racists that are booing him be booing other black players on our team?
I was at a former friend’s home an he asked me why QB’s and OLmen tended to be white, he went on to tell me it was an intelligence thing and that those positions required the most of it.
I told him he was lacking it and I left, have never been back but I know for certian that there are many other fans that think just like him. Someone called it the Aryan QB fan club – it’s there don’t live in denial.
Having said that – I am with Billy G on this one. While the racism card, as is usually the case, has been use both ways on this, its not the biggest factor.
People hate Jefferson, an BOO’d him, because they don’t like him as a player, it so happens the guy they are rooting for now is white but it wasn’t that long ago that it was exactly reversed. “BOO Lee, give us Barrabus Jefferson.”
So what it REALLY boils down to is that they don’t trust the Coach to play the best player and if they can’t comprehend why something is not going as it should, or as they think it should then the answer is “that grass eating coach should play Hatch Lee Shepard Jefferson Zach Lee Garrett Lee Jefferson LEE!!!”
Frankly, I wish it was just stupid red-neck racism it would be easier to understand, still stupid but easier to understand.
Its hard to understand because Les Miles is the BEST we’ve ever had and his football wisdom has always prove true in the end. Our QB situation has been a disaster since RP an Miles has given us 29 wins, 3 bowl games, 2 bowl game blow outs and a lot of great football largely with Jordan Jefferson at the helm.
Now that our offensive frustration and futility is wearing ridiculous uniforms and on display at Maryland we want to act like Crowton never existed and Krags isn’t here. “I was right all along, give us LEEEEEEEE, Jefferson was the problem and I’m smarter than Les Miles!!”
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
two things
1) I Love Miles and trust his decisions. But it’s not unreasonable for fans to support miles and still think he makes bad offensive calls sometimes (look at the last two years).
2) Ancedotal evidence is not statistics. Your friend thinking white OLs and QBs are smarter is not evidence about an “aryan fan club.”
Okay, so let's talk facts
In this whole Jefferson/Lee debate.
How about Jefferson’s second half of last season, from the Auburn game on, compared to Lee’s performance? Because people seem to have forgotten that Jefferson completely yanked control of the quarterback job BACK from Lee down the stretch last season. He completed 64% of his passes at 9.4 per attempt with 2 TDs, 1 pick and another rushing TD while the offense averaged 35 ppg (and while facing . That’s a pretty close equivalent to what Lee did in Sept. (64%, 7.2, 6-1 ratio, 38 ppg).
People say that the facts don’t support Jefferson playing at all, well, that’s not exactly true.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
No, not at all - I think JJ played pretty well at the end of the year
I think he’s done that a couple of years in a row though – and his performance at the end of the year did not lead to good performance at the beginning of the next year. Shoot – the kid’s a world beater in bowls. I’d love to think that would carry over this year – and maybe it would have without the suspension – maybe it still will – but it’s not guaranteed.
Nor is it that Lee will continue to play well
He certainly looked pretty bad against Kentucky. Worse than he did in any other game this season.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Yep. That's true.
Again, I think we’ll need JJ. I think he needs to get some playing time in the next couple of weeks.
I just don’t think it’s idiotic, ignorant, or racist, to disagree with my conclusions.
We never said it was racist to disagree with us.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Come On Billy!
Don’t go confusing everyone with FACTS! God forbid!
For the sake of argument, let’s rank them as equals (which I don’t, but what the hell?):
I’d like to hear from fellow posters their answer to the following question: If you are a defensive coordinator, who would you rather game plan against? JJ or JL? Explain
2-1 is "pretty close" to 6-1?
I’m not arguing which QB the stats support playing, because anyone on here pretending to do that is just laughable. But when you do try to do that, and make claims like you have, that fairly strongly suggests that a bias is skewing your perception of the stats. 6-1 is worlds different than 2-1. And four games is not the “second half of last season”. It is in fact more than two games shy of half the season. The consistent and significant exaggeration in your comment does not seem incidental, coincidental, or accidental. It seems, rather, that you have a bias, and that bias is influencing how you read, perceive, and express ideas on this topic.
by King Joey on Oct 6, 2011 1:44 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Lee has more TDs
Jefferson had a higher yards per attempt. Both are pretty important statistics.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Bravo
Good job for taking this on, and I’ll probably ramble too because let’s be honest if we could all write about a complex issue like race in a concise way, we’d all have Pulitzers.
I’ll add a little different perspective from my seats in the SEZ at the game. I sat next to 2 black couples for the game. They clearly were just casual fans of LSU and don’t go to games often. They knew most of the well known players but didn’t have much in depth knowledge of the team. They cheered their ass off though and were fun to sit next to.
When Miles put JJ in the game, there was plenty of grumbling in my section. Most people were concerned with JL’s confidence and rhythm or some similar theme. There were a small handful of boo birds and one was just a few rows back and was pretty loud about it. Why he was booing, I don’t know because he was only booing and not voicing his reasons. The couples next to me though (rightly or wrongly) immediately connected that guy’s booing to race. As the game went on the JJ’s playtime just became part of the game the comments and boo birds disappeared. At the same time though, the couples next to me slowly became convinced that Miles was not giving JJ the plays he needed to succeed. That Miles was directly sabotaging the black QB. Obviously this was ridiculous and after I explained it had more to do with JJ not having practiced for a month they seemed to accept that explanation.
I just wanted to add my little anecdotal story to the discussion.
I also want to address booing in general. Booing = farting. Booing can’t come with caveats and neither can farting. You can’t boo from your seats and then say you are booing Miles, or the play call or anything else. You drop that bomb and it’s going everywhere, spreading out evenly across the kill zone. You can try and blame it on someone or something else, but no one is buying. Just don’t do it.
I wish it was this easy for Ole Miss fans to talk about a subject like this...
But we’d be front paged on the New York Times if we did.
I never get Chicken on a Stick at Chicken on a Stick, but I love Chicken on a Stick.
that's because the KKK shows up and rally's on your front door.
just saying.
Oh, and thanks for the Bear thing, that was great to hold us over with laughter until the Aggies joined the conference with their “cheerleaders”….
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
not everything has to be a dig
Guy came over to say he’d like to see mature discussion from his fanbase. He makes a good point, I’ve seen some discussions at RCR that immediately blow up once someone starts talking about racism, especially about the schism caused when they dropped Colonel Reb. A lot of their fans are mature and articulate but a few jerks can ruin it for everyone.
I’ll say to him I’m proud we can do it here even when many people disagree. I wish our whole fanbase were more like our little corner.
by ORtigerfan on Oct 4, 2011 1:31 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
He's an Ole Miss fan he's used to it.
but I was just kidding, we still get to have fun around this place don’t we?
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
Having grown up in Slidell...
…I’m just comparing the two environments in which I lived. I dated an LSU girl for 3 of my 4 years in college, and often remarked how different Friday night party demographics were, even amongst progressives. Mississippi has just had a little more trouble getting out of Jim Crow. There’s an accidental distrust in a lot of ways. I think Red Cup does a wonderful job discussing things that other publications in the area can’t, and maybe that’s just on par with the type of folks that use SBnation, as this has also been a good discourse. Keep up the discussion. If it’s one thing that I do know, we won’t get anywhere ignoring issues such as this one. I send my regards from Oxfordtown. Don’t talk too much trash, SouthernMan, or our truly awful team might dash your National Championship hopes.
I never get Chicken on a Stick at Chicken on a Stick, but I love Chicken on a Stick.
Why play the racism card?
So its Racism? Thats just someone wanting to stir up the pot.
The reason Jefferson was Boo’d was he kicked a man in the face when he was on the ground! I don’t know about what its like were you live, but I live in South Louisiana and that stuff ain’t acceptible here. When you are 6’ 6", around 250 there is no need for it. Man professed to be a leader, obviously someone told him wrong.
The Boos had nothing to do with race, religion, or sexual orientation. The Boos were because he showed little or no class in his actions and he demonstrated a definate lack in his upbringing!
Boys will be boys…… fights are natural especially when youth are over stimulated but even if he wasn’t “THE” leader that should/could have prevented the entire problem, he should have been man enough to buc up and fight like a man and not some girlie boy!
I say even if they didn’t have a single backup QB, even if his lawyer had not got the charges reduced (wonder what that cost), he should have been benched till he draws Social Security! What a loser!
I'll assume you just heard the first news report of him kicking a poor defensless Marine
made up your mind that he was therefore a punk an dug yourself a hole under a rock to live in shortly thereafter, correct?
The senario you painted above is grounded in zero precent of reality and he almost CERTIANLY did NONE of what you discribed so where you come from in South Louisiana is it ‘ceptible’ to be dead wrong?
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
I don't know where to start with you
so I’ll do what my momma from north Louisiana taught since we all know regions have strangleholds on moral viewpoints and behaviour, and not say anything at all if I can’t say something nice.
Easy with the south Louisiana bub
Not all of us have the same “viewpoints” and “behaviors”
by LSUDeathValley on Oct 4, 2011 9:22 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Oh I know that for certain
I’m just messing with that mental midget for that remark.
I know fine people from all over this great state.
wow
and there you go…. JJ done kicked some marine in the head!! he hates him some ’merica!!!!!
by TDTGodfather on Oct 4, 2011 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions
JJ HATES MAREENS & DEY MOMMAS TOO!
JJ HATES FREEDOM! JJ HATES ’MURRICA! JJ HATES! JJ HATES!
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." - H. L. Mencken
by Curtis Bleaux on Oct 4, 2011 5:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Well there you go er'body. He did it.
We don’t need no stinkin legal system. Lynch mobs cheaper anyway. You tryin to take a lynch mobs jerb? Then you ain’t ’mercan.
Les Miles is my coach. You think you can show me the mouth of madness? I've worn madness' hat, and the fit was perfect.
by Matt 'n' The Hat on Oct 4, 2011 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions
No backup QB?
have you seen Alabama play this year?
You have been mad and drunken, furious and wild, filled with hatred and despair...but so have we - Thomas Wolfe, inadvertently commenting on college football.
Wow, how do you buy off a grand jury? That's a trick I have not heard of.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions
It has nothing to do with race
People flat out don’t like Jefferson because they cursed at him all season last year. His quarterbacking was horrible and people (myself included) just haven’t forgiven him for that. I did not agree with the charges against JJ at all and was not happy about how much attention was being given to a common bar fight. It was no big deal imo. Bar fights happen every weekend in BR. But if there was a positive that could come from it, it had to be that the fan base would not be divided over the QB position and we could all just enjoy football. I was happy that they reinstated him but I did not want him to play. Not because he was black or because he got in trouble but for the reason I did not want him to mess JL’s mojo up. Lee has been playing extremely well and I don’t want him to get his confidence all screwed up just because JJ was trying to get his job back. If Lee starts screwing up, I will be the first one to say “Give JJ a chance, put him in.” But until that happens, I don’t want to see JJ on the field. And even if JJ gets on the field I don’t want to see the option or QB draw anymore. I am tired of it, make him throw the ball. I cannot stand having a two QB system for the mere reason that one runs the ball better. We have 4 deep at RB for that purpose.
If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten-George Carlin
by AcquiredPanic on Oct 4, 2011 4:00 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Out of Curiousity . . .
. . . , do you attribute JL’s poor performance this past weekend to JJ’s presence? Do you attribute his reversion to horrible habits to JJ’s presence? Do you attribute his obvious fear of contact to JJ’s presence?
As to playing horribly last year: WHY are people, who have seen JL’s obvious and laudable improvement under Kragthorpe – and knowing that, notwithstanding that improvement, JJ still WON the starting job from the COACHES (not the fans) – unwilling to acknowledge that apparently JJ exhibited commensurate improvement? Why are those people so unwilling to acknowledge the number of times JJ bailed us out with his feet? Why are those people so unwilling to acknowledge JJ’s performance in the Alabama game and Cotton Bowl? Why are they so unwilling to acknowledge the JJ broke the single season rushing record for a QB at LSU and scored 7 rushing touchdowns?
I ask, because when you say he played horribly, you seem to be one of those people.
Why do you insist on comparing JL’s performance THIS YEAR (and I exclude the last game, b/c to me, his performance was anything BUT good) with JJ’s performance LAST YEAR, even though you know JJ won the starting job?
by Deluded on Oct 4, 2011 7:12 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'd like to hope JJ improved - and I think he probably has under Kragthorpe....
and I love Miles and am super happy he is our coach. But given his, shall we say, “stubborness” with QBs at times, it’s not unreasonable to conclude he kept JJ as the QB starter before the Shady incident out of stubborness as much as out of JJ’s improvement under Coach K. I don’t subscribe to that myself, but it’s not a crazy position. I’d love to see a dramatically improved JJ. Of course, I’d love to see a dramatically improved RS at wide receiver. But after two years under Billy G, he looks basically the same.
in that last line of thinking, you could say how it's even more true of Lee
Lee looked bad last saturday and it was the same old Lee (staring down WRs, throwing from back foot even with plenty of time, taking way too long to pull the trigger). Lee is basically the same sometimes but everyone thinks he’s way better.
He’s somewhat better. And as Deluded pointed out, I’m willing to wager that JJ has shown commensurate improvement in areas. I want to see it. And after a four game suspension, he deserves that chance.
You might be right
I think Lee looks a good bit better – but he still has some of his bad tendencies. I’m willing to live with that at this point. I think his upside – an ability to provide catchable throws to receivers downfield – and get third down conversions – is worth his downsides.
I think the same might even be true of JJ. I hope it is. The thing is, JJ’s downsides aren’t always as obvious as Lee’s pick-sixes – but they are still there. And whereas Lee’s pick-sixes were THREE years ago – JJ’s were last season. Holding on to the ball too long, taking too many sacks – and the converse – giving up on the play and running for 2 yards too early. Lee struggles to go through progressions – that’s true. Though he has been better this year. Does JJ ever go through progressions? He is very good on designed runs. He’s even pretty good on the option. But in the passing game….not so much. And he’s not anywhere near the realm of Tebow or Newton in the run game…so I have my doubts about his ability to lead the offense by mostly running the ball against a team like Bama. I have similar doubts about Lee. I think we’ll need both of them. But that still has me scared…
you're hammering the point we're trying to make
you’re talking about JJ from last year. I wanna see this JJ that Krag has worked with and everyone says has improved. If Krag can help JL, I bet he can improve JJ.
I do too. Believe me, I was as bummed as anyone when the news about JJ
came out. And I keep wondering — why didn’t Miles have JJ throw against Kentucky? Why bring JL in on third and long? I suspect it’s because the coaches either 1) don’t have confidence in JJ’s ability in that situation – which would be terrible for his and the team’s prospects or 2) didn’t have confidence in him on Saturday because of the rust – which would be reasonable.
I think we’ll find out which is which against Florida. And I’m really rooting for #2. I said last season that between JL and JJ we had one good QB. I still think that’s probably true.
Fair enough?
I'm pretty sure we're on the same page
And if we’re to win anything of note, we’ll need both at their best of abilities.
Definitely fair enough sir. And agreed regarding working JJ in and probably being rusty on passes. I would bet they weren’t concerned about him making a mistake and letting UK back in the game, that just wasn’t a possibility. It was JJ tossing an INT that would’ve made for an even uglier scene.
Sounds like it.
I think your third option is very reasonable as well. That would have made for some lousy newspaper articles heading into the florida game.
Coach Panic
Thanks for being honest and I know a lot of people feel that way but since we are being honest, is it possible that Jefferson would have improved this year too since we have a new OC and for the First time a QB coach?
Out of curiosity, have you watched Maryland at all this year? There offense looks just like ours the last three years just with less talent and it is hard to watch. I think the only thing uglier than their red zone efficiency is their uniforms.
I’m not saying JJ wasn’t part of the struggle but remind me of those games, before this year, that Jarrett Lee was so great in the Crowton system, yea I don’t remember them either.
JLee is not some punk that is bothered by the presence of his teammate, whom he cheered wildly for by the way, and all of the other ‘panic’ you posted about can be answered this way.
Just put faith in the hat, he’s got this!
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
I agree an improved JJ under Krag is intriguing.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions
AP
Do you really think you’re being positive about Lee when you say something like this:
I did not want him to mess JL’s mojo up. Lee has been playing extremely well and I don’t want him to get his confidence all screwed up just because JJ was trying to get his job back.
Because that’s actually pretty insulting. I would like to think, and I would damn sure hope, that Lee is more mentally tough than to let the mere presence of Jordan Jefferson affect his play. Miles has reiterated that Lee is the starter multiple times now. If Lee’s confidence is shaken that easily, LSU is in trouble this weekend and against Bama.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Well it's certainly unfortunate
that less Miles doesn’t give a fuck what you think.
Respect the bucket, son.
I am so sick of people playing the race card
Why is this race debate always one sided with white against black. I feel like you could make a much more compelling argument for white players being discriminated against in all sports. Everyone knows what the ratio is but are white athletes complaining about it? No. Could they complain about it? Yes they could but the coaches are just going with the more talented players, right? They just all happen to be black….hmmmm interesting. I think if the situation was reversed people would be breaking out an entire deck of race cards. Nothing is said about it and no one bothers to look at it like that because everyone is scared to death to be called a racist. I am fine with people wanting to debate this topic but you have to go both ways with it.
If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten-George Carlin
by AcquiredPanic on Oct 4, 2011 4:15 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
deer lowered
I don’t think outside of lighthearted making fun of Thomas Dunson you can find me a white guy that’s been vilified. On the other hand, there’s a huge amount of Tiger ‘fans’ that venerate players such as Hester because he’s so ‘scrappy’. Change his colour to black and some would say his abilities and performance were par for the course.
Yes, Hester is tough and works hard, but so is any young man that makes it to the NFL, as Hester has done.
Race card
Please, let’s get rid of that expression. I wasn’t the person who brought up racism, I wrote an article about it after it’s been percolating in our comments and on many LSU articles throughout cyberspace for weeks. It is entirely appropriate that we tackle it head on instead of dancing around the isue. I won’t deny there are some who will play a victim card whenever they have they chance, but I do not believe it is reasonable to think that every single person who has caught a whiff of racism in the treatement of Jefferson to be playing the race card. As it is so many different people who have felt face was a factor, I think a genuine starting point is that a majority of those people are expressing their honest feelings and not trying to score some sort of points. Let’s keep our eye on the ball.
I honestly want to talk about the larger issue of race and fandom and not just Jefferson and Lee. Which is why I tried to focus on my own attitudes, and not extropolate onto other people. Let’s try and talk about how we, personally feel, instead of trying to analyze everyone else’s motives. Are my own attitudes towards race informing my opinions of Jefferson, conciously or uncoinsciously? I think that’s a far more itneresting question. And one that is much harder to answer.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
But you didn't tackle it head on, Poseur
You recycled a bunch of speculative, unsubstantiated generalizations about thousands of people you’ve never met as if that’s some sort of refreshing commentary or insightful analysis. If you’re not going with specifics, then you’re not going anywhere. Saying, “racism exists” and “racism is certainly a factor to some extent for some people” is utterly meaningless. Literally, as in “it has no meaning”. What, exactly, specifically, are you saying in that article? Even in the article itself you admit you don’t know what you are saying. And that is because you are saying nothing.
If you want to tackle the issue head on, then tackle it. Make allegations, not generalizations. Give specifics, not suppositions. And if you don’t have any specifics, and you don’t have any grounds to make allegations, then what exactly is the point of talking about it at all. Think about it: if you can’t muster up the specifics to make even one single allegation, how confident are you that the generalizations are even true? Thousands of people in Tiger Stadium with at least some racism motivating their actions, and you can’t even point out one? Seriously?
Because THAT would be tackling the issue head on.
by King Joey on Oct 6, 2011 2:04 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I Don't Know About That, LSUJ
I have to admit that Jarrett Lee has taken his beating here and other places.
Did anyone ever get the list of the other 50 players at Shady’s? Do we know if Lee was there with his teammates?
He wasn't at Shady's
He (and Mettenberger) were at another bar in Tiger Town from what I understand but they were out as well.
It only matters that JJ was there, it is his fault for being at the wrong place at the wrong time, he was the leader so EVERYBODY that was at Shady’s gets a pass because it was JJ’s fault an Lee and Zach chose a better bar so they too get a pass.
Makes perfect sense, no?
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
Are you serious?
I don’t think outside of lighthearted making fun of Thomas Dunson you can find me a white guy that’s been vilifiedWow. Do the names “Jamie Howard” (death threats), Josh Booty (All-SEC QB routinely described as the “worst QB to ever play football”) and “Jarrett Lee” (“Mr. Pick Six”) ring a bell? Booty and Howard have been vilified far — FAR — more than any other athleteat LSU not named Cecil Collins — white or black — since at least the mid ‘70s which is as far back as I can remember. Harvey Williams didn’t get as much grief as those guys and he choked his girlfriend down a flight of stairs.
by King Joey on Oct 6, 2011 1:58 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
was i the only one who read this.....?
Everyone knows what the ratio is but are white athletes complaining about it? No. Could they complain about it? Yes they could but the coaches are just going with the more talented players, right? They just all happen to be black….hmmmm interesting.
seriously?
by TDTGodfather on Oct 4, 2011 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions
I think the sentence that followed was the point, that was the set up.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Read the sentence after and all will become clear
Yes seriously
If you can't beat them, arrange to have them beaten-George Carlin
by AcquiredPanic on Oct 4, 2011 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions
GREAT Article.. I hope it get national attention
The line I loved was “Racism, at times, is like pornography. You can’t define it but you know it when you see it.” I do believe that we as a culture have come so far, especially in the south. The racism of the 60’s and 70’s doesn’t really exist anymore, by and large. You do still see vestiges of it from time to time, but for the most part, the subtle kind is predominant. The slight prejudices, the thinking that a white QB is better because they need to be smarter, calling a guy a thug, etc. Rohan Davey is a perfect example of how subtle it has become. Everyone LOVED him. I know I did. But had he been a white QB, one who didn’t have all the physical gifts that JJ had, he would have been even more cherished. Again, that is my belief. Same goes with Hester. Had he been black, he would have been another above average RB. Instead, he was loved.
Now…. ALL of that being said… I think there was an element of JJ letting us down that was in some of the BOO’s. Expectations were high. We knew we had a great D. We knew our OL was stout. We knew we had a solid RB situation. For months, we knew this was a national championship calibre team. The only weak spot was the QB. But, wait, what’s this? JJ has progressed? This isn’t a weak spot anymore? We really do have what it takes?
And then he goes and acts stupidly. Yes, he let the team down. Yes, he let himself down. But more importantly, he let his brothers and sisters in purple and gold down. And they let him know it. And that’s been a theme with JJ: letting us down. That’s why fans boo. They are tired of the screw ups. And in this case, fans I believe were booing because he let them down…. again. Had he been white, the boos may have been softer, but I still think they would have been there. Maybe…
Agreed
This is how I feel. Up front, I am willing to admit that I am ready for the JJ era to end – I think its been long enough and I am ready for new blood. I think he got hosed being thrown to the wolves too early, having Crowton as his OC, getting railroading by BRPD, but at the same time I was very disappointed that a senior team leader put himself in such a poor position that ended up affecting the team negatively.
I also agree it was just a bar fight and they happen all the time, but you have to know better – it was two weeks before the season. Its your senior season. We have Nattie level talent on D and our O line. It was a very poor decision and unfortunately players are held to a different standard.
I think its okay for some of us to not like this opinion and be upset with him for it AND not be racist for having such opinion.
At the same time, I think we will need him to beat Bama and I really hope that he has improved – I want to win and don’t care who does it – Lee is shaky at best and the Lee is awesome crowd is misguided.
If others are as conflicted as me ( and not at all racist I need to add) then clearly there is a lot of baggage here and makes it a very convoluted issue.
PS – Some of the thug stuff I think comes from the media blast that hit ordinary fans (that don’t dig into the facts and issues other than on a surface level) with “he kicked a marine in the face” – not letting people that might be racist off the hook but the Marine thing was out there big time initially and people still believe it – even though the guy was way more douche bag than marine
Re: Media blast: Jacques Douchet needs to be put on notice
his inflammatory crap got the whole ball rolling with a quickness.
Knowing what we know
now – we ought to track him and some of the other media members that sensationalized this shit and harass them.
What happened to the days when everyone knew how to sweep transgressions under the rug in the name of good football?!
Hell even Oregon has the hang of it and they are new to the party!
I am old fashioned enough that I contacted WAFB
I told them even though I preferred them and especially Jay Grimes, I won’t be watching them anymore. I know that doesn’t matter but at least wanted to give them fair warning before contacting sponsors now that it appears this matter is settled.
He came out first
and was pretty much going beyond the normal reporting with hysterical LSU players beat and kicked a US Marine in the head! It’s so shameful! when nothing was proven. I think he let his personal affinities considering his softball benefit game (which is great) to colour his reporting. He needed to take a deep breath and report that some LSU players might be involved in a bar fight, you’ll know more when we know. But no, he had to go and put it on blast that some mean vicious LSU players almost murdered a Marine from the tone of his report. And everyone ran with it.
Racism and JJ
I did not boo JJ and I do not condone it. In fact I do not think we should boo any college football player. That said, from my point of view, the negative feelings expressed are for the most part due to JJ being a very poor QB. In addition, right or wrong, we had extremely high expectations for 2011 and his conduct put those expectations in jeopardy. We had high expectations for 2010 and 2009 also. Perhaps unfairly the fan base put more of the blame on JJ and poor QB play for failure to deliver. Once again, booing a 21 year old college kid is boorish behavior. However, I do not think racism had anything to do with it.
if what you say holds true
then Lee should still catch boos for his sometimes abysmal work. Instead, he was greeted as a champion of all things whenever he jogged back out.
We know what you assert isn’t true from those circumstances right there.
Dude
you act as if Lee hasn’t been booed himself. I would never boo players but Lee gets some additional consideration from me because he has been through hell and stuck around. Good thing he did, b/c I don’t think we would be where we are this season without him.
Your logic here is failed. You are painting with a very broad brush and I think you need to take a step back.
of course he has
but he was being treated like he just won the Heisman from the respective cheers he received.
The booing of Lee in 2008
Was every bit as embarrassing (especially when he got hurt — that’s even more disgusting), but that doesn’t make it okay to boo Jefferson now.
And one other note — again, not directed @dallas, just in general. The people that are worried that Jefferson will be “divisive” and react by cheering extra hard for Lee because they “want to show him how much they support him,” are doing much more to be divisive than anything Jefferson is doing.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
well glad not directed
b/c I didn’t say that and want to make clear I didn’t even mean to insinuate it – I think we need JJ to win. I just don’t think not liking JJ = racist . In some cases that might be true, I just don’t like the train of thought that says any other reason for not liking JJ is bulsh, if you don’t like him you are racist.
And at no point have we said
that “if you don’t like JJ, you are racist.”
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Not explicitly Billy, but it's in the ether as it were, in a lot of these posts
that if you’re not a fan of JJ at this point, some sort of racial issue is a part of it. It’s not been explictly said, and it may not have been intended, but it’s around.
I disagree
I think people are very sensitive on this topic, and that there are a lot of people who jump to that conclusion at any implication that they draw. Notice how quickly Poseur’s accused of “throwing the race card” when his third sentence is:
I am in no way charging any person who has posted a comment on this site, or any other LSU site, as being a racist.
A lot of people’s first reaction to any sort of implication of any involvement of race is to completely make the entire discussion about it.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
I have seen
some comments that completely, without any reasoning, shoot down some people’s reasoning for not liking JJ – didn’t say it was you specifically -
Yeah, that's the basic point I've been trying to make Dallas
I’m not really a fan of RS at this point. But I love ODB and think T-rex is fantastic.
Starting with this
I did not boo JJ and I do not condone it.
Made me consider the rest of your comment. I don’t agree, but I do see where you are coming from here. It probably has MORE to do with the perception that JJ isn’t that good, but to say that racism had nothing to do with it is (unfortunately) a little overly optimistic about the mindset of the fanbase.
Respect the bucket, son.
and that is the point that Billy G has been trying to make
It probably has MORE to do with the perception that JJ isn’t that good
is probably a bigger motivation than this
racism
But that is just as bad or worse. I agree.
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
You'd think repeating that 8 or so times this thread would get the point across.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
tigerarchitect. . .
Thanks for giving me a great sig quote. I hope you don’t mind. That analogy has summed up how I’ve been feeling since that disgusting incident Saturday morning. This site is a part of my morning routine before beginning work.
Keep it up everyone. I thoroughly enjoy the discourse!
Two more cents...
I never gave the racist angle a thought when I heard the boo’s. I didn’t boo from my front row seat on the sofa. I didn’t, but should have, given a thought about down and distance. What I did think was the booing more in support of Lee than against Jefferson. Lee has been through so much and has hung in there and never complained. Lee inherited the starting job due to Jefferson’s actions, not his own abilities. That said, Lee has made the most of the opportunity and I think the fans just wanted show their support for Lee for all he’s been through, for hanging in there in spite of it all and for what he’s done for the team this year. Weird logic I know, but forgive me I’m fat…
LOL...
I can lose the weight but you’ll still be ugly. I love this site. Three years ago I didn’t know what a blog was. My UGA grad daughter had to explain it to me. First thing in the morning I check email, second is a visit to ATVS.
glad you are here
it seems our commentariat is growing and that is a wonderful thing. We have great writers and great commenters.
Poseur...
I appreciate hearing your thoughts, but I disagree with the posters who thought it was in someway brave to bring this up. Are you kidding? There’s nothing particularly brave about awkwardly bringing up the possibility that we (by virtue of being white and southern) might be racists. Shoot, it’s a tried and true method of getting elected to Congress, and sometimes, to the White House.
I don’t want to beat a dead horse – though in this case the horse needs to be beaten – but I find it ridiculous to suggest that there are many racist white fans who spend tens of thousands of dollars a year to watch mostly black athletes play a sport. This makes no sense on its face.
I absolutely detest the argument that “these words are racial code words.” This argument is lazy, unproductive, and in some cases, slanderous. The Steelers are a blue collar team. Most of their team is black. That’s the identity the team likes to have and be thought of in a blue collar town. It does not have a racial connotation.
Please, stop with the Jacob Hester “was only loved because he wasw white” example. His senior year – there were a ton of white fans screaming to put Keiland Williams in. Did the white fans not love Joseph Addai his senior year? Of course they did?
People are aggravated by JJ because of two things. 1) His maddening inconsistency at QB. 2) The allegations against him.
I think he got screwed by the BR police.Shoot, my family thinks I’m an LSU apologist for saying JJ probably didn’t have anything to do with the fight. But a lot of people have just read the Advocate and watched ESPN – and that’s not the message they have heard there.
I’d end by mentioning that Justice Brandeis is a particularly questionable progressive Supreme Court Justice to quote on racial issues. See: “Louis Brandeis and the Race Question,” Alabama Law Review, Spring, 2001, 52 Ala. L. Rev. 859 and this brief note on the anniversary of Brandeis’ 150th birthday, http://www.joeljacobsen.com/journal/2006/11/13/197-happy-150th-justice-brandeis.html. When one considers Brandeis’ and many other progressive’s support of the eugenics movement, which wanted to use forced sterilizations and abortions to slow the birth of black babies, Brandeis raises more questions than he answers on this issue.
Finally - I thought this blog was about sports?
All I’ve seen lately is posts about how LSU fans are racists or stupid for booing – or how much cursing is acceptable.
Where are the posts about how awesome ODB is, or why the linebackers suck, or whether the DL can get enough interior pressure to negate Demps and Rainey when we play Florida.
As LSUloops suggested below – let’s talk about that stuff – than unsupported assumptions and opinions about why a small group of fans booed during a game. Seriously, fans booed during an athletic event? Like, dude, I’ve never heard of that before? Oh wait, I hear boos in every athletic event…normally against the refs, the opposing team, and frequently, the home team…
OK, Here You Go
Who gives us a better chance of beating Florida? JJ or JL?
Lee!!!
Who threw the winning touchdown pass in last year’s game? Could Jefferson have made that throw?
Exactly. JJ can move the offense in spurts. But I don't have confidence that he can
pass the ball when it counts. Now, maybe with Coach K’s teaching – the coaches have that confidence. If so, great. I’d love to see the results. But with what we as fans have to work with – JJ last year, JL last year and this year – I’d rather have JL in with JJ possibly coming in occasionally to run the ball.
The problem with the QB switching in the same drive is that it often leads to mistakes like too many men on the field, extra timeouts called, or even fumbles. And it’s not just LSU with Crowton that has had this problem. Lots of other teams have a passing QB and a running QB and they frequently have transitional issues as they sub QBs out. If the coaches decide that’s the best way to go – I hope it works… I’d rather see Lee continue to throw pretty good passes and watch the receivers up their game a bit. And even more importantly – I’d like to see the OL get mean in run blocking and open some holes up against good defenses in the first half.
There’s nothing particularly brave about awkwardly bringing up the possibility that we (by virtue of being white and southern) might be racists.
You are entitled to your opinion, but you cannotmake up what my opinions are. I said nothing of the sort. In fact, I clearly said that we have no more racists in our fanbase than any other school, north or south. I also said this:
While I find the portrayal of the South as a haven for racists infuriating and, well, incredibly offensive, the only way to combat this portrayal is to shine a light on the rest of us who do not resemble this stereotype at all.
If you feel that I was calling southerners racist, I don’t know how to disabuse you of the notion, as I clearly stated I wasn’t, and actually find that line of argument offensive.
In fact, I spent a good portion of the article exploring my own racial attitudes, not everyone else’s. You are perfectly entitled to your own opinions and you may disagree with mine at your lesisure. but please disagree with what I actually said.
As to the comment that we should only talk sports — I am talking sports. This is a large issue in the fanbase right now and that’s what Tiger fans are talking about. It would be silly to ignore the argument raging under our noses. Like I said, let’s actually talk about it instead of whispering about it. Let’s have a frank discussion in one thread, where we all act like adults and speak in a rational and non-accusatory manner.
We’ll focus on Florida for the rest of the week.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
Poseur, I don't think you're being totally clear about what you think...and maybe that's partly a result of the
somewhat wandering nature of your post. You did say that you don’t think most southerner’s are racists. But you also said that there are all of these code words used that hide vaguely racists feelings. And they are “code words” used all the time to describe college athletics. It follows, that if we frequently use code words like “athletic quarterback,” or “scrappy runningback” that we are dealing with racist connotations.
In other words, in your post, like in many discussions of race in modern America, you had it both ways. You said 1) I’m not saying that we are all racists…2) but we are kind of all racially biased in sort of invisible ways that I can’t really describe and I’m vaguely uncomfortable with.
Well which is it?
And I’m all for a frank discussion…but having a discussion doesn’t make it frank. If you say – we aren’t all racists…and then say, we use these racial codewords all the time…well that isn’t frank.
I'll have a post later today that'll make people much happier.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Code words
Oh. I certainly believe there are lazy code words that are shorthand for race in the media – thought that doesn’t mean the person using those terms is a racist. We find ourselves using those words because of repetition. We do it without thinking.
For an LSU example, JaMarcus was often described as a mobile QB when he was nothing of the sort. I don’t think it was malicious, just lazy.
But my major objection was that you claimed I was calling southerners racist. I did not and your digression on code words in no way addresses this point. In fact, a good portion of the media is not southern, so if I’m blaming media codewords, I’m not accusing the south of being this racist pocket in an otherwise enlightened country.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
by Poseur on Oct 4, 2011 9:22 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Believe me
If I thought Poseur was saying this:
I’m not accusing the south of being this racist pocket in an otherwise enlightened country.
I’d be one of the first ones to rebuke him.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Code words
I’m not saying that these people booed solely because Jefferson is black. On the other hand, I do not believe Jefferson would have been booed for simply entering the game were he white. Now, I can’t prove that, obviously. It’s just how I feel.
The reason I feel this way is because there is an ugliness to the comments about Jefferson among LSU fans that just feels wrong. Racism, at times, is like pornography. You can’t define it but you know it when you see it. We can all spot the obvious racist, but what about the more subtle kinds of racism? What about the racism that lurks in our own hearts?
You didn’t say all southerner’s were racists. You said you can’t quite define racism, but you know it when you see it, and you saw it in the comments among LSU fans. So you weren’t saying LSU fans were racists…but you were saying they kind of sounded like racists.
Look Poseur, I do not think you actually believe all southerners (or even many southerners) or all or many LSU fans are racists. But your own general confusion on the issue (as you admitted) to, leads to a confused reading of your posts – that spent a lot of time talking about things that are kind of sort of vaguely racists. And the code words used – in your original post – aren’t just used by the media. You talked about them being used by fans and by yourself as possibly unintentional or intentional racists code words.
You talked about your feelings. And your feelings are that race is a huge factor in the dissaproval of JJ. The logical conclusion from that is that you feel that many (though not all) of those who dissaproved of JJ coming in did so because of racism. You didn’t say that explictly, but it certainly follows from your train of thought. And a whole bunch of long time readers of the blog who really like ATVS have said so and rejected your argument.
Edit. Fail at quoting. The top two paragraphs are a quote from Poseur's original post
the bottom three paragraphs are mine
I think Geaux's
sentiment explains the bristling that occurs when some of us read these posts. I love this site, you guys are the best thing going LSU wise, you can post whatever you want and I will continue to come here no matter what. But you have to be okay when some of us don’t like where the logic leads.
I am embarrassed by some in our fan base all the time and I struggle when I take my kids back to LA because I don’t want them to be exposed to the racism that exists (in my own family sometimes) BUT you have to give some people the benefit of the doubt when they plot out their reasoning for disagreement or when they put forth an argument that some fans can not like Jefferson and not be racist (and again I know neither of you said this but it has been said by other posters and its easy to glean it even when its not straight up said). I need one of Spencer’s venn diagrams ;)
Ok I’m done – lets talk football.
by dallaslsu on Oct 4, 2011 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
You talked about your feelings. And your feelings are that race is a huge factor in the dissaproval of JJ. The logical conclusion from that is that you feel that many (though not all) of those who dissaproved of JJ coming in did so because of racism. You didn’t say that explictly, but it certainly follows from your train of thought.
Yet I did explicitly disavow this conclusion. I’m not a big fan of the slippery slope line of argument.
And I think we really are having a semantic argument at this point. I’ve argued that we all might harbor some feelings or thoughts that might be racist. But, being decent human beings, we tend to slap back those thoughts when they pop up. There’s not a person alive who has never had a single racist, or racially informed, thought (ok, except babies).
I think you’re looking for Klansmen or Nazis, and they certainly weren’t at that game. I’m not saying that. And I’ve explictly stated that booing does not equal racism, and have said so repeatedly.
What interests me is both the timing of the boos as well as the depth of the vitriol slung at Jefferson on the internet. Why do people hate Jefferson so much? It seems far deeper than the hate thrown at, say, Karnell Hatcher for being lousy in pass coverage. It’s almost personal.
I would also take this moment to say I’m enjoying our discussion and I think it’s good to have an open discussion about uncomfortable things at times. Even… especially if we disagree.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
Fair enough Poseur, but actually, what I disagree with is this:
There’s not a person alive who has never had a single racist, or racially informed, thought (ok, except babies).
I think this is wrong, arbitrary, and non-falsifiable.
I’m not looking for the Klan or Nazi’s at all. I find the “racially conscious” argument much more insidious and dangerous. If we want a colorblind society, one place to start is to not insinuate that people are racists…
As far as the timing of the boos – I think that’s pretty simple. A lot of people have bought into the basic storyline of the Shady’s incident – that JJ beat up on a marine. If you thought that was true, it could easily follow that you don’t think he should be on the team and that he shouldn’t play. That’s pretty clear. I don’t think that storyline is accurate – but a lot of people do.
Highlight what you wish to quote, and then click the quotation marks on the task bar.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
by Poseur on Oct 4, 2011 11:29 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
The problem, for me at least
And I’ve explictly stated that booing does not equal racism, and have said so repeatedly.
Then why did the booing incident lead you to write an article where the first word of the title is “Racism”?
The question is this, Poseur: did the booing incident reflect evidence of racism or did it not? If it did not, then your entire article is disingenuous. If it did, then “tackle it head on” and say so.
well stated post.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions
All I can say is...
I wish I was reading something about how we’re going to destroy Florida next week instead of somebody’s half-baked, completely unsupported opinion about whether the boos of a small contingent of attendees at the LSU game on Saturday was partially inspired by racism/bigotry.
we're going to destroy Florida
stay away from the -13.5 though, that’s a nice trap Vegas laid out for you.
Happy?
Agree!
I’ve seen some places have -14 too. I’d stay away from anything bigger than -9 but I’ve had a terrible few years, so what do I know? :P
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." - H. L. Mencken
by Curtis Bleaux on Oct 4, 2011 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions
I honestly don’t know what the point of this piece is, which is bad
Me neither.
2011 LSU Accolades:
"Imperial Intergalactic Overlord Barkevious Mingo" -Andy Staples
"If Alabama's defense is a boa constrictor, slowly sucking the life out of opposing offenses, LSU's is more like a goon that throws the offense into a burlap sack and starts beating it with a stick." -Matt Hinton
"Oregon’s Chip Kelly is generally considered a coaching mastermind. Miles toyed with him here Saturday night." -Dan Wetzel, Yahoo Sports
"I don’t want to say that I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson…..but I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson." -Les Miles
My thoughts
Watching the game and hearing the boos, my initial feeling was of shock, then anger, followed by embarrassment. Underneath those feelings was a stinger of racism. My wife (who is white from TX) said, “why are they booing JJ-racist pricks!”. We talked about it the “lunatic fringe” of any fanbase, but it was clear to us that “fringe” is predominantly racist. Yes you can disguise it under the guile of play calling, Lee’s drive, thug, etc, but I don’t buy it.
Then when you read comments from these so-called fans it just reiterates that feeling. I think to myself ‘my God if they’ll boo one of their own players like that, why would I want to go to that school’. I watch a lot of college football and I just don’t see any booing like what goes on in Tiger Stadium against their own team.
I’m from La (Monroe), so I know racism (both ways), but my 18 years in the military and working in diverse environments and broadening my scope on life and people has really enhanced my view of humanity. Maybe some of the “fringe” people should just get out more.
Lastly, like many of you, I feel there is never an exucse for booing your own team EVER. Yes you can get mad and frustrated, but you move on to the next play and encourage YOUR team the very best you can, and if you’re not satisfied or you think things are ALL wrong then find another avenue to express yourself-just DON’T boo our beloved Tigers.
FOOTBALL DISCUSSION
As a defensive coordinator, who would you rather gameplan against? JL or JJ?
Explain
JL just because you dont have to worry about the option or the Zone Read
They are just about the same throwing
DONT BOO PLAYERS EVER!!!!
Dirk Nowitzki's Flamingo Fadeaway is this generation's Sky Hook
by jharrison2090 on Oct 4, 2011 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions
Lee
Easy question…
I agree with the poster above that made the point that as good as Lee has been, JJ still won the starting QB job.
Sure Lee is playing well right now. But I can’t help but wonder how much improved JJ really is under Krags.
And this is the source of the “QB controversy or divisiveness”. It’s not like I think that JJ is a team cancer…But everyone (media, coaches etc.) were pumping JJ all off season. Now all of a sudden he’s back. I think it’s natural for us to wonder, “Could things be even better with JJ?”.
It’s not fair to Lee. It’s not fair to the team and it’s not fair to Les. But hell, inquiring minds want to know what JJ can do.
2011 LSU Accolades:
"Imperial Intergalactic Overlord Barkevious Mingo" -Andy Staples
"If Alabama's defense is a boa constrictor, slowly sucking the life out of opposing offenses, LSU's is more like a goon that throws the offense into a burlap sack and starts beating it with a stick." -Matt Hinton
"Oregon’s Chip Kelly is generally considered a coaching mastermind. Miles toyed with him here Saturday night." -Dan Wetzel, Yahoo Sports
"I don’t want to say that I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson…..but I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson." -Les Miles
I Can't Agree That "It's Not Fair to Lee"
I can’t imagine he ever thought that he gets to keep the job by default. He has to play well enough to keep it. I only hope that last weekend wasn’t the beginning of a slide back to the old JL.
I will always wonder how good JJ would have been this year.
Regardless of how J Lee plays. And that sucks for Lee. But I can’t help myself.
Make no mistake. I’m 100% behind Lee. And more importantly I’m 100% behind whatever it is Miles wants to do with this situation…But I can’t help that I’m curious.
2011 LSU Accolades:
"Imperial Intergalactic Overlord Barkevious Mingo" -Andy Staples
"If Alabama's defense is a boa constrictor, slowly sucking the life out of opposing offenses, LSU's is more like a goon that throws the offense into a burlap sack and starts beating it with a stick." -Matt Hinton
"Oregon’s Chip Kelly is generally considered a coaching mastermind. Miles toyed with him here Saturday night." -Dan Wetzel, Yahoo Sports
"I don’t want to say that I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson…..but I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson." -Les Miles
Ditto
And speaking of fair, how “fair” would it be to JJ to be relegated to the sidelines after he had won the starting job simply because he broke curfew (along w/50 others)? If, as the coaches decided at the end of the Summer, JJ is the best person for the job, how fair is it to THE TEAM that JJ remain on the sidelines?
Bingo.
There isn’t a single other player who lost his starting job because he broke curfew. And if JJ really is completely innocent, then why should he lose his job?
2011 LSU Accolades:
"Imperial Intergalactic Overlord Barkevious Mingo" -Andy Staples
"If Alabama's defense is a boa constrictor, slowly sucking the life out of opposing offenses, LSU's is more like a goon that throws the offense into a burlap sack and starts beating it with a stick." -Matt Hinton
"Oregon’s Chip Kelly is generally considered a coaching mastermind. Miles toyed with him here Saturday night." -Dan Wetzel, Yahoo Sports
"I don’t want to say that I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson…..but I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson." -Les Miles
Well, we know he's innocent . . .
. . . until proven guilty.
Lee is the starter
I don’t think there is significant portion of the fan base calling for Lee to be benched in favor of Lee. I haven’t seen one post here by any commenter promoting Jefferson for starter. Miles has also clearly stated Lee is the starter. I think the issue is what is JJ’s role going forward?
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
I think that's easy to say today.
But as the season moves forward, I don’t think it will be so cut and dry.
2011 LSU Accolades:
"Imperial Intergalactic Overlord Barkevious Mingo" -Andy Staples
"If Alabama's defense is a boa constrictor, slowly sucking the life out of opposing offenses, LSU's is more like a goon that throws the offense into a burlap sack and starts beating it with a stick." -Matt Hinton
"Oregon’s Chip Kelly is generally considered a coaching mastermind. Miles toyed with him here Saturday night." -Dan Wetzel, Yahoo Sports
"I don’t want to say that I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson…..but I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson." -Les Miles
Well, as Les Himself Said . . .
. . . JL is the starter IF he continues to play well. Fair enough. Last weekend just gave me pause as to how long he can continue to play well.
Now, Poseur, as one of the main writers on this board, I pose the original question to you: If you are a defensive coordinator, who would you rather gameplan against? JL or JJ?
It depends
If I have an attacking defense that blitzes a lot, I want to face Lee because I think I can rattle him. Also, JJ is a danger to break contain against man coverage.
If I have a more reactive D that plays lots of zone, I feel I can keep JJ in the pocket, and he can’t beat me from there. Lee could sit back and pick me apart with time.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
by Poseur on Oct 4, 2011 11:34 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Is It Safe For Me To Conclude Then . . .
. . . that, given time, you think JL is the superior passer, notwithstanding the stats Billy G. posted earlier?
Is it likewise safe for me to conclude from your comments that a zone coverage will keep JJ in the pocket and you, as DC, would just let him sit there?
Yeah. JL is a better passer as far as we know.
JJ may have magically transformed into a great passer – but I doubt it. I don’t think Kragthorpe recreated these guys. JL looks like a moderately improved version of what he used to be. JJ probably had a similar improvement. If that’s true, he still won’t be as good a passer as JL – but he will be better than he was.
I would say they both have their strengths and weaknesses as passers.
Lee has a quicker release, and is overall the more accurate short passer. JJ throws touch passes better and can get the ball out from different platforms better, when under pressure or on the move.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Fair enough Billy. That's probably true.
I’m no great judge of QB play. Lee definitely has trouble on the move.
Let me rephrase – Lee gives us a legitimate downfield threat. I’m not sure JJ can do that. But he can help more with his legs and with the short 5 yard throws.
Here’s the thing – if we can run the ball well with Lee or JJ – what we need most from the QB (it seems to me) is a downfield threat.
Actually
Let me rephrase – Lee gives us a legitimate downfield threat. I’m not sure JJ can do that. But he can help more with his legs and with the short 5 yard throws.
Flip that around just a little bit. Lee throws the short passes so much better (due to his release) — the slants, the hitches, stuff like that. It’s a big reason why LSU’s third-down conversion stats are up this season and big plays are down.
JJ helps give you more of a big play threat, but he struggled to do those little things right at times last season (though I maintain Gary Crowton remains the biggest culprit in the offensive issues and I think his track record, including Maryland’s offense this season, backs that up).
If you could combine the two skill-sets, you’d probably have one QB that could handle the load by himself lol.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
I was wondering what you meant - I just interposed Lee and
JJ in your comments. I see what you mean. Do you really think JJ throws better downfield – or is it that he gets open outside the pocket and receivers have more time to get open? I suppose either way -it ammounts to the same thing.
I agree about your last comment – between the two of them we have one good QB. But of course, that’s really the heart of the problem, right?
He throws the touch routes better…the post, the take-off, the fade, the types of plays where you can just throw it out there and let your guy go get it.
When you look at JJ’s best games as a passer, those were usually the routes getting called a lot. And when I think about that I usually want to strangle Gary Crowton, because they were so few and far-between.
The best example was probably the 09 Auburn game.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
thanks. I might have to go back and look at the auburn game
Won’t get any argument from me about despising Crowton’s playcalls.
JJ
skills as a passer all well represented in the NC game from last year, the Alabama game, and the TXAM game. I believe JL throws a quicker and more catchable short ball though.
Yes, Jefferson won the starting job in practice
But remember, Bledsoe also beat out Tom Brady in practice until his injury. Coaches are way, WAY smarter than us (well, almost all of them are), but they aren’t infallible. Just because he thought Jefferson was the best QB in August doesn’t mean that he will think Jefferson is the best QB in October.
by King Joey on Oct 6, 2011 2:08 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
No, they aren't infallible and nobody ever said they were
But given the choice on who’s word I’m gonna take, its theirs over yours every day and twice on Sunday.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
I think its racism
The Body Language is such a cop out. Look what happens when P Manning messes up. What QB doesn’t have bad body language when they mess up. They all do People are finding any way they can to boo this man, The offense last year was a clusterfuck that led to LSU always being in third and long with WR not getting open and when they did it was either a drop or a bad pass. That will frustrate anybody who is trying to help their team win. I Dont care who the QB is long as we win.
You say its not racism. Im black and i went to an 95% white private catholic school in Dallas Tx. You know how many times I heard the N word muttered around me PLENTY . It hurt but you grow tough skin and you move on.Sticks and Stones
Im just sad that this is tearing the Tiger Fan base in two parts, when we should be celebrating one of the greatest teams that we have had in a long time. I say we just put it all behind us today and do like Auburn did with Cam Newton. We are all we have let the haters hate but we need to be a united fan base! See you in the Sugar Bowl!!!!!! Geaux Jefferson Geaux Lee Geaux TIgers.
DONT BOO PLAYERS EVER!!!!
Dirk Nowitzki's Flamingo Fadeaway is this generation's Sky Hook
I agree with your post except
You can play the P Manning card. He is considered the greatest QB of all time. He could kick a cheerleader down the filed while munching on a baby seal…people would cheer.
But I would see your P Manning and raise you one Jay Cutler. People hate his ass even when he get them to the div champ, because he aint good enough to act like he does.
Some feel JJ is more like Cutler than Manning.
Just saying.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Just because you (any of you), an individual who is intelligent and posts on this great site in a thoughtful manner, are not a racist, and don’t have a racist bone in your body, does not mean that some others don’t. Just b/c you dislike JJ for totally objective, football reasons doesn’t mean that’s true for everyone. All Billy’s post tried to bring up was that for some people, not all, some—there is more going on here than just not liking a player. It is a valid opinion and one we should be able to discuss without such hypersensitivity. He didn’t say that if you dislike JJ you must be a racist. All he said was that some people’s dislike for JJ is about more than just football. Is that really so hard to believe? C’mon guys, we all live here, and we all know that some people still drop the n-word and say ugly things about black people, tell offensive jokes, etc. And often, they aren’t embarrassed by doing so, nor are they admonished by their friends. So please, let’s not act like racism doesn’t exist and couldn’t possibly be a factor here.
by truerjulie on Oct 4, 2011 10:03 AM CDT reply actions 6 recs
I agree with you. And I agree with Poseur. And I agree with Billy.
But posts like this seem to blow up this issue bigger than it needs to be.
First, I’m pretty confident in my belief that the kind of people who read this blog aren’t the kind of people this message is or should be directed to.
Next, there is nothing we can do about it. The people who believe that JJ should be booed because he’s black is a very small part of the fan base, and their numbers are shrinking every year. We are making progress not going in reverse.
2011 LSU Accolades:
"Imperial Intergalactic Overlord Barkevious Mingo" -Andy Staples
"If Alabama's defense is a boa constrictor, slowly sucking the life out of opposing offenses, LSU's is more like a goon that throws the offense into a burlap sack and starts beating it with a stick." -Matt Hinton
"Oregon’s Chip Kelly is generally considered a coaching mastermind. Miles toyed with him here Saturday night." -Dan Wetzel, Yahoo Sports
"I don’t want to say that I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson…..but I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson." -Les Miles
by LSU Jonno on Oct 4, 2011 10:27 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
two objections
1) the problem with the author’s post, in my opinion, is that the “some” is an empty vessel. And I think the actual word i found objectionable was even broader. So a reader via SI.com fills that vessel and says wow, local writes think they booed JJ because he is black. Stupid racist southerners. My point, if the number is so small, why highlight them? Why make them feel relevant and part of a movement?
2) I’m sorry, but telling a joke does not make you a racist. Using the N word does not either. Believing blacks (in this case) are an inferior subset of the human species makes you a racist. And racist can tell bad jokes, but just because you find a joke funny does not make you a racist. Too many examples to refute this point to even bother trying.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I for one am tired
Of this “are the people that boo’d racist”. I don’t Fucking care. They are dumbasses! Does it really matter? We, as fans, are dwelling on something we cannot control. Let’s focus on the next game, I know the players have.
by cbkao on Oct 4, 2011 10:12 AM CDT via mobile reply actions
Sorry for cursing, just gotta get my LSU football fix and all I see is topics on racism. I know it exists and it goes both ways. In a way I’m glad JJ is a senor not b/c I don’t like him but b/c we won’t have hear about this whole argument for awhile.
by cbkao on Oct 4, 2011 10:26 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Haven't read 179 comments...
You hit on it above but it’s sort of the “unconscious racism” that lingers here. Billy mentioned to me that if Ware or Ford or Shep was asked to run the sneak, there would have been no boos. So it’s not explicitly a “black” thing. But the the color of JJ’s skin inexplicably plays a role, whether the fans booing believe or realize they are racist or not, IMO. A lot of time we are unaware of the deep-rooted things in our subconscious, some of which have been thrust upon us due to region, family, upbringing etc.
The question I return to is, if the roles were reversed entirely, with Lee being black, JJ white, would the boos still be there? I’m not sure. Impossible to answer.
Another additional point is that JJ hasn’t exactly endeared himself to the fanbase. People don’t like the way he talks to the media. People don’t like his facial expressions. People don’t like his body language. I’m not saying any of those things are “fair” or “right”, but the fact is, they are. That certainly played into the booing as well.
Eye right blahgs.
ok i know i just said i dont care but
I hate to answer your question with a question but since you brought up role reversal. Let’s even the whole field. A majority black tiger stadium, with a white inconsistent qb freshly off 4 game suspension replacing the black qb who stayed around after being benched do we still hear boos? I’m curious to hear your answer?
by cbkao on Oct 4, 2011 11:20 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
sorry to channel
Inner Mathew Maconahey.
by cbkao on Oct 4, 2011 11:25 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
sorry to channel
Inner Mathew Maconahey.
by cbkao on Oct 4, 2011 11:25 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I would guess so.
I’m not sure. It’s another unanswerable question.
I do firmly believe there is a vast difference in the “black experience” and the “white experience” in America, regardless if things are legally “equal” today. I’m young and white and will never understand what it is/was like to grow up black, from any background privileged or otherwise.
I think there’s probably some built up racism in blacks due to the way they were treated by whites for so long. There’s still a lot of built up racism in whites who view blacks as unsavory, etc. The difference is the blacks are mostly responding to years of abuse/mistreatment… the whites just seem to still carry a mentality instilled for years and years.
I have a good friend here who wouldn’t call himself racist in the slightest (and claims a black man as his best friend), but yet pretty openly decries all the “thugs” and “trash” living in Chicago, referring specifically to blacks. He doesn’t use the same language regarding whites. And he’s from Wisconsin, liberal and has a college degree. It’s strange, really.
Eye right blahgs.
Do you really think you know what it is/was like
to grow up white in your next door neighbor’s house?
We are individuals, by biology and society. Not one of us can ever know what it is like to be another one. I can’t know what it’s like to be you any more than Eddie Murphy can know what it’s like to be Jamie Howard. The notion that some of the barriers to that understanding are somehow qualitatively different is a notion I’ve yet to see supported by any evidence.
We need to get over this notion that “[x] people just don’t understand.” White, black, men, women, old, young, etc.; it’s all true and it’s all bull. NOBODY understands, but understanding is useless; ACCEPTING is what we need to work on. I don’t care if the people around me understand me or not, as long as they are accepting me. The notion that understanding equals tolerance is a lie; the only ones who can understand are the ones who are the same, and there’s nothing tolerant about them accepting people just like themselves. The tolerance comes when people who don’t understand accept each other anyway.
I don’t understand what it’s like to be black. I don’t care, because I’d rather work on accepting the people around me for who they are. If being black has made them a sociable, generous and forgiving person, I’m not going to try and be their friend because they’re black; I’m going to befriend them for being sociable, generous and forgiving. If being black has made them a bitter, spiteful asshole, then I’m not going to pretend to like them because they’re black; I’m going to push them away for being a bitter, spiteful asshole. Trying to adjust your reactions to someone because of their race seems, well, kind of racist.
by King Joey on Oct 6, 2011 2:24 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
See, and this
People don’t like the way he talks to the media. People don’t like his facial expressions. People don’t like his body language.
Has far more to do with performance than people want to admit. Dan Marino never met a receiver he wouldn’t verbally abuse on the sidelines, and nobody cared because he was Dan Marino. And if Lee started doing this sort of thing while continuing to play well, a lot of people would talk about how great of a leader is and how he’s keeping the offense in line.
This sort of thing is just one more thing for people to complain about, but they don’t really care. They care about performance. I just wish people would admit that sometimes.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
by Billy Gomila on Oct 4, 2011 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions
well the performance exception will always exist
if you perform, people will find a way to excuse (possibly glorify) your bad traits, and flaunt your good ones.
if you don’t perform, people will find a way to illuminate your bad traits and break down your good ones.
but in some cases there’s still a mentality there. a lot of people don’t like philip rivers because of the way he carries himself on the field, and he’s a great player. mike vick is a fantastic player and makes one comment about the refs not giving him a fair shake (with no mention of race at all), and he’s widely called a crybaby, etc. though this is something brady/manning have talked about plenty.
Eye right blahgs.
Vick's not a good example I think - since so many are predisposed to dislike him
because of his criminal actions. I think he’s served his time and would like to see him succeed – but I also think he’s being a bit of a crybaby on this issue. Once the QB starts running, he should be treated like a running back, not a QB. And if you make your money on your running ability as a QB, you’re going to get hit more. Deal with it, or learn to pass better. With a $100 million contract it’s hard to feel sorry for you.
if you don’t perform, people will find a way to illuminate your bad traits and break down your good ones.
That’s kind of my point. A lot of the comments about Jefferson are people just projecting their frustrations on to the kid. Its not enough to just say “JJ is a bad quarterback,” it becomes “he’s a brat. he’s a pouter,” and this or that, and it just becomes ridiculous.
If you want to say “I don’t want JJ to play because I think Lee is better,” that’s all well and good and we can discuss that. But when all this other crap comes in, we’re going off the grid into this world where we all think we know these people personally. And we don’t.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
I applaud your courage in opening up a dialogue about a no-win topic.
The unfortunate second edge of the politically correct sword is that it allows labeling someone with a derogatory term, if that sword is swung in defense of a touchy issues. Terms like "bleeding heart liberal", "elitist", "racist", etc., are all designed to eliminate discussion. Pushing through it is brave and commendable.
Racism: the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race. [] prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on such a belief. – The New Oxford American Dictionary, 2001.
In my humble opinion, much of the modern discussion of racism is locked to these two points; PC and the meaning of the word racism. True racism has at its heart a fundamental belief that another race is inferior, by generics, Darwinism or God. Hate is a more superficial emotional reaction to events more complicated than a simple belief of inferiority. In a country where one race was capable of owning another, it is no surprise that a line of true racism evolved. Could you really expect a slave-owner’s child to think the chattel [property] that he saw working the fields was not inferior to him? Egyptians surely thought the Jews were inferior while in their captivity, and many, many, civilizations felt their slaves were inferior throughout time. People are not that complicated; they (we) seldom seek out truth beyond the "obvious".
So racism is not a fairytale, or a belief system lost to time. But the recent line of commentary here, that the fan base’s reaction to JJ’s arrest is driven in a material way by a belief he is inferior and therefore now wanted or respected as a human is wrong. [By ‘material’ I mean statistically meaningful amount. Fill in your own , but I say 5 – 10 is useful for discussion.]
What you absolutely saw was a young black man falling into a stereotype of black men being more likely to be violent, more likely to be criminal, than the rest of society. We can all bemoan stereotyping, but it is not racism except at a very high and all-encompassing place. Just because skin color is one element of the empirical data does not tie direction to a feeling of racial inferiority. Virtually every LSU and college football fan had no knowledge of JJ on a personal level. So when they read form ‘trusted’ sources that he broke curfew and kicked a Marine in the face so hard it broke his neck, his reputation was irreparably harmed. Innocent until proven guilty is a matter of losing your freedom, not a principle of human interaction. JJ got into a situation that made it easy for people to lump him into one of the many boxes people keep, as they had little other knowledge of him off the field.
Would Lee have been put in the same box; no. He is not a young black man. He does not fit the mental box marked "violent black man". But opinions would have changed, people would have been pissed, and his level of fan support would have dropped. The fact that many see this as an attack on a US Marine cannot be lost here. Much of the harshest comments I have seen put this fact front and center. Lee does not trigger the ease of association that makes the claim as easy for some to believe, but a large swath of people would think him no better than they current think of Jordon – but in a different box marked "violent redneck Texan" or something.
Is there an element of racism in more quickly/easily believing a young black man committed a violent crime than a young white man? Perhaps; its not an illogical belief. But I think the issue is more about the human need to stereotype to quickly consume small bits of information and move on with their day. In my experience as a white man, from a small town, graduating LSU, graduating Tulane law, and having been blessed to work closely with people from many diverse walks of life from ‘blue collar’ black welders, to WASP business leaders, to Jewish lawyers, I feel very strongly that the number of functional, productive, members of society that think blacks (Jews, whites, Indians, etc.) are an inferior race – racist – are few and dwindling.
A black man was elected leader of the free world, so we clearly have gotten past it nationally. As for LSU, I’d say you would have a hard time finding a crowd with more men and women willing to break bread and befriend a fellow fan of a different race. LSU fans lack elitism, we welcome our foes, we celebrate our diverse culture, and have worked hard to move past the wounds left by generations of the ownership of humans. We aint perfect, but we are not as dumb and slow to realize the failings of our grandfathers as many assume – as a stereotype easily fed by unfortunate articles and statements spread nationally. Got to love the irony of that.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 11:36 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
A black man was elected leader of the free world, so we clearly have gotten past it nationally.
Seriously, you can’t really mean that electing Obama means we don’t still have serious racial issues and lingering racist attitudes in this country. Racism is complex and usually isn’t as simple as not liking black people. It’s more insidious than that.
2) I’m sorry, but telling a joke does not make you a racist. Using the N word does not either.
I agree that there are jokes about different races that can be funny and not racist. If you think dropping the n-word (seriously, not as a joke) is no big deal that’s your call. But don’t be shocked if some people think you’re coming from a hateful place. That’s the risk you take.
If we are as evolved and open-minded a fanbase as you claim, surely we can maturely discuss the fact that some of our members are just buttholes. Some are racist buttholes, and some are just buttholes. Same as any group of fans at any school. And some of those buttholes booed one of our players last week and embarrassed a lot of us. I don’t think anyone is going to acknowledge that they or their friends were of the racist variety, so this discussion doesn’t really accomplish much. But I appreciate that Billy and others were willing to at least put it out there rather than ignoring it.
Sorry, but I disagree.
The fact that a black man – a minority in a test of majority vote – can win the election is a huge book of empirical data that many, many, many whites don’t think blacks are inferior. Sure racial issues exist, but you can’t lump racial issues into racism. Racism is a belief structure. Racial issues are a gambit of problems that exist for millions of reason – one of which is slavery (racism). But simply because black crime is higher, or black test scores lower, does not mean those situations exist because racism exists. You are right, it is complicated, very complicated.
Just to mark history, I don’t use the N word. I’m always shocked to hear blacks use it. My point is very simple, words don’t make you a racist, your beliefs and actions in furtherance of them make you a racist. So why and how you use the word, the joke, the flag, is more informative.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Try this quote thing again
Seriously, you can’t really mean that electing Obama means we don’t still have serious racial issues and lingering racist attitudes in this country. Racism is complex and usually isn’t as simple as not liking black people. It’s more insidious than that.
If that’s not sufficient – what is? Before Obama was elected a lot of people talked about it as the litmus test. Recently the Supreme Court said they weren’t quite ready to end affirmative action yet, but hoped to at some point. Justice Scalia, in his dissent – asked, “when?” If electing Obama President, did not signify that race has officially become irrelevant in people’s political decisions – what will?
This is my issue with Paul’s comments as well. Paul essentially said, some of the booers may not even think or realize they have racial/racists thoughts – it’s just unconscious. What? What does that even mean? There’s no there there. What is the argument? What is the position? We know you have racial/racist feelings….because we know? Oh, ok – that makes sense now?
Tip for the quoting
Just write your post out, then go back over the part you want to put a quote box on, highlight it, and click on the quote symbol.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
I think I got it - you'd think a phd would...no, it really doesn't...
Seriously, you can’t really mean that electing Obama means we don’t still have serious racial issues and lingering racist attitudes in this country. Racism is complex and usually isn’t as simple as not liking black people. It’s more insidious than that.
If that’s not sufficient – what is? Before Obama was elected a lot of people talked about it as the litmus test. Recently the Supreme Court said they weren’t quite ready to end affirmative action yet, but hoped to at some point. Justice Scalia, in his dissent – asked, "when?" If electing Obama President, did not signify that race has officially become irrelevant in people’s political decisions – what will?
This is my issue with Paul’s comments as well. Paul essentially said, some of the booers may not even think or realize they have racial/racists thoughts – it’s just unconscious. What? What does that even mean? There’s no there there. What is the argument? What is the position? We know you have racial/racist feelings….because we know? Oh, ok – that makes sense now?
Herb Tyler wasn't that long ago
but things have gotten a lot better since then. He was absolutely disliked by some fans because he was the first black QB. Since then we’ve had a bunch of black QBs – some of the best QBs ever at LSU, actually – and I think that’s mostly gone away, except for a very small minority of assholes.
You have been mad and drunken, furious and wild, filled with hatred and despair...but so have we - Thomas Wolfe, inadvertently commenting on college football.
I don't follow college football closely
But an honest discussion of racism will always draw me in. Well done.
I think you put your finger on it: Jefferson now falls into an unfavorable stereotype. Before, he was a black football player, and we’re used to that (and LSU has owed much of its success to the likes to JaMarcus Russell, Dwayne Bowe, Early Doucet, etc.).
But with his transition to criminal behavior, he becomes a recidivist. And based on our society’s approach to criminalization, prison populations, etc., that’s typically a black role. Unfortunately, the reduced charges will not affect popular perception.
It’s a matter of appreciating people as individuals and the complexity that entails. So this conversation needs to happen. Thanks.
Endavant, a triomfar, a guanyar Villarreal!
by siempre_riquelme on Oct 4, 2011 12:25 PM CDT reply actions
Thanks.
I’m afraid as rational beings (we try anyway) stereotypes won’t fade. We see, we record, and see the same situation and assume the same outcome. But they can change. Hell, Obama has changed many stereotypes, as did Colin Powell and C Rice, and Carver, and Douglas…
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Again - JJ got screwed
But to say that our society’s approach to criminilization makes us think that being in prison is a black role is just silly. Our criminal justice system has a number of issues – but the reason people often associate violent offenders with black men is because a lot of violent offenders are black men. We don’t associate white women or black women or asian men with violent offenders – because that is much more rare.
just as
Most people associate white males with serial killers. Stereotypes go all ways but mostly somewhat come from fact. Hell, there is a reason why people from up north think we are racist rednecks down here because of past history. It’s why they become stereotypes. Not all stereotypes are bad either, you won’t see many black guys saying no they don’t have big… Or asians saying they aren’t smart or any other positive stereotype. Does this mean that every black guy is a violent well Hung individual, no of course it doesn’t. Or that every Asian person is a math genious? Well, maybe.
by cbkao on Oct 4, 2011 3:47 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Rohan Davey was...
the fan’s choice over Josh Booty long before that decision was made by our genius coach at the half of the Peach Bowl. Rohan had been the obvious choice since he led LSU to a win over Tenn playing on one leg. Booty’s frequent brain farts and other issues did not endear him to the fans. After the Peach he was encouraged to move on. Nobody heard calls for Matt Mauck the next year.
Winning and performance trumps everything for 99% of the fanbase, here and everywhere.
As far as who would I rather gameplan against that’s easy – JJ. Why does a running QB present more problems? It depends on how well you execute it. JJ is an OK runner – he’s not Brad Smith or Tebow.
Based on past performance of two seasons at the bottom of the NCAA as a passer he’s never shown he can consistently get the ball to his WR’s. Shut down the run and make him throw. I’ve been consistent since last year that we should use base I-form with Lee and a play action pass game. JL can pass better than JJ. If he couldn’t he would not have seen the field in every late game passing situation last year. What the coaches say and what they do can be two different things. JJ has never had 5 games in a row running the offense and throwing the ball as well as Lee has so far. Lee has as many TD’s as JJ had all last year and is not throwing picks (except the imaginary ones that the other team “should have” caught or “Bama will catch” according to his detractors.) At present JJ does not deserve the starting job. It’s Lee’s to keep or lose based on his ongoing play. Could JJ be better due to coaching? Maybe – he ran the sprint option correctly for the first time in memory on Saturday. He’ll get his chances to show it. The promises of a new JJ coming into the next season are not new and are one of the reasons for the fan’s skepticism about him starting again. But JJ is one play from being the starter and even though he’s limited (as is Lee) he does have skills and has been through the wars so I’m very happy to have him back.
And people who booed JJ are booing LSU and they suck… and I don’t care if they do it from stupidity, racism, or haemorrhoids. It just does not matter. Completely unacceptable behavior from a-holes.
And if you think many of them are not doing it because they still dislike and distrust Miles, and that some of that dislike is transferred to JJ because they consider him “Miles’ boy,” then you’re kidding yourself too.
by pttigris on Oct 4, 2011 12:52 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
This
JJ has never had 5 games in a row running the offense and throwing the ball as well as Lee has so far.
Should ready more like 3/5. Lee’s play was nothing to be bragging about versus Oregon or Kentucky.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
There has not been a clunker...
like a Tenn or Florida in there either. And TD passes in every game without picks. Few negative plays to put us behind the sticks. Who knows if it’s the cart or the horse in front? The damn thing is moving. Plan for problems but leave it alone until one arises.
Eh, that's subjective
Personally, I call a sub-50% completion percentage a clunker, and Lee was that in both of those games. Yeah, drops played a role, but so did bad reads and bad throws (especially last week). I know Jordan Jefferson had a couple of those last season too, but I’m not judging Lee through any other prism than his own. A bad performance is a bad performance.
Lee’s been solid, and he definitely deserves to keep his starting gig. And if he can improve at the rate he did in games 2-4, he can take as many snaps as he wants as far as I’m concerned. But I’m not going to ignore the bad performances either.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
You really feel like JJ had only a few bad performances last year?
That surprises me.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Are we really going to argue the semantics of the word "a few?"
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
A couple, a handful, a gaggle, whatever word works for you lol
He also had a handful of good ones as well.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
To state the obvious
many people less informed than you feel Jefferson was really bad QB last year. Granted, a big part of that is now in Maryland. But the Cotton Bowl was seen as a huge turn around, by many. Our offense was ranked low, as I recall. This year, it looks better, and we are No. 1. Why is it so hard to believe the some people just don’t want to go back to the offense of last year.
Granted, that does not give JJ credit for growth, but it aint a ridiculous view no matter how many times you say it is.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions
I never said JJ was a good QB last year.
You seem to be jumping on a statement that you completely misunderstood.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Ok.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Should I have been more specific and said 8 clunkers, and 5 good ones?
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Because JJ Can Run . . .
. . . and JL absolutely can’t, wouldn’t the more fair statistical comparison for the 2 of them be total offensive production? I would also take issue with who is the better passer based on both stats and performance in, among other games, the Cotton Bowl.
How have the offenses ranked under each?
That should be more inclusive stat than picking 6TD v 2, or 185 yrd v 102, etc.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions
what "ranking" are you talking about?
and when you rank the entire offense, you are also ranking o-line performance and running back performance. I think it’s got to be a head to head.
JL has started 5 games this year. The last time he did that he was a RS freshman, so we throw that out. I think we can all agree that these 5 games are his BEST 5 games as starter during his career.
Why not compare JL’s 5 games this year with JJ’s 5 BEST games, including the Cotton Bowl, last year???
Anybody willing/able to do that? Mr. Gomila?
And the analysis should include their respective rushing yards . . .
. . . so that their actual contribution to the offense can be compared.
I would suggest this to Poseur and ATVSQBI
Because I think it does a pretty good job of measuring overall value.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
ATVQBPI
JJ’s last 5 games last season: 7.916
Lee’s first 5 games this season: 5.188
JJ 2010 overall: 5.545
Lee 2010 overall: 5.424
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
how does that fit
with the fact our offense was crap last year, but is capable this year? We have been scoring TD by land and air. I just don’t remember 2010 have much of that.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm actually surprised
This is the first time I’ve run the numbers for Lee’s whole season. I honestly didn’t expect to see his average in the 5’s, so I have no idea what to think.
I would say that Lee’s numbers are solid, but not great: he’s completing under 60% of his passes, and he’s only averaging 158 yards/game. His rushing stats also drag him down.
ATVSQBPI doesn’t rate the whole offense, just the QB. And JJ really did seem to turn the corner in the last five games last year. I can’t quite explain it though. I was just providing the numbers without judgment.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
I appreciate the explanation.
It is frustrating sometimes to hear about the stats of each looking so close, when the product on the field looks so different. Honestly, I think our offense looks light years ahead of last year. Statistically it might not be, and in reality I may just be sucker for a pro-style. I don’t know. Your figures are good food for thought.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 7:57 PM CDT up reply actions
ERROR! ERROR!
Thanks for checking my work. You’re right, it didn’t seem right so I checked my Excel spreadsheet and I had an invalid input which screwed up the numbers something awful. So let’s start again, this time with accurate numbers.
JJ’s last 5 games last season: 6.771
Lee’s first 5 games this season: 7.866
JJ 2010 overall: 5.997
Lee 2010 overall: 4.919
Those make a lot more sense.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
Woah - that's a big difference
I was wondering about that. And honestly, despite some of Lee’s “off frame” throws – he’s really been brought down numbers wise by some of these drops. Now – JJ had drops too – but my totally unscientific survey (i.e. my memory)- seems to remember fewer drops last year than this year.
I don't buy the drops argument at all
If anything, our receivers have played much better this year than last. I feel that people are calling things drops that do not meet any standard for “drop” other than “the receiver should catch every ball within two yards of his body”.
Randle dropped a ton of balls last year, as did Shep. Really, Randle’s only had one or two drops (though that one was awwwwwwful) and Shep has actually displayed better hands, though still below average. ODB has better hands than anyone we had last year and Peterson is showing more consistency.
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Drops
I feel like they’ve been more concentrated this season, specifically in the Oregon and Kentucky games.
I don’t remember that many from games 2-4, aside from Randle’s dropped TD.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
I think that's just selective memory Poseur
She’s had a ton of bad drops. ODB has been great – but he had 2-3 bad drops against Oregon. Peterson has made some great catches – but also had bad drops. Chase Clement has dropped basically everything thrown his way. And the other freshmen wideouts – Wright and ?? (I’m blanking) – have each dropped 3 or more passes.
That’s in just five games – mostly against Oregon and Kentucky.
I don't think so
So many people brought up drops in the Oregon game, that I rewatched the game specifically looking for drops. I did the same with the UK game. And despite the rhetoric, there just weren’t the sheer number of drops being claimed. Unless you count as a drop everything a receiver touches.
I think it’s definitional. It’s what you are calling a drop is not something I would call a drop.
And Clement couldn’t catch anything last year either. That’s not new. I just don’t think we’re dropping 7-10 balls a game. It’s much closer to 3 or 4. Which is still a lot, but last year we had an unreliable receiving corps as well. Tolliver was notoriously unreliable.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
I don't know if its even 3-4 a game
Unless you average that out over all five games. There definitely weren’t many against NSU and State, and maybe I’m wrong but I really don’t remember any from the WVU game except for Randle’s dropped TD.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Tolliver was terrible last year
But I remember when you did that analysis after the Oregon game – and the general feeling aroudn ATVS was that most people seemed to disagree with your count. I just think receivers should be expected to catch balls that you clearly don’t think they should. I think there were 7-10 drops in the oregon and kentucky games and 3-5 in the other three games. That’s a lot of drops. And that’s a lot of 3rd down throws that killed drives.
Top quote me after the Oregon game:
But his receivers were worse. None of the young receivers stepped up to help out Lee. Odell Beckham and Jarvis Landry seemed to be in a competition of who could drop more balls.
To quote you:
5 or 6 total drops – they weren’t all perfect, but if the wideout can get his hands on the ball unimpeded by the corner he has to catch the ball.
But now it’s 7-10. It keeps growing. And you’re right people disagreed with our count, many people tended to think it was lower.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
You're right poseur
I forgot 5 weeks later how many passes I thought were drops in the game. That must invalidiate my argument as I constantly grow the number of drops in my mind.
Bottom line – most of our receivers are underperforming. What are we paying Billy G for again? He’s looking less and less like a steal of a hire.
You were the one making the accusation of misremembering
I’m sorry I used actual contemporary evidence. I never said it completely invalidated your argument, I’m just saying your numbers, and your recollections, were incorrect.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
I recall many drops of JJ's balls
because one of my arguments against him was that he may throw a hard to catch ball b/c so many drop his passes. I’d say that stat is a wash, depending on “drop” v. “off-frame”, etc. But I (me alone) felt JJ let the drops get to him more than Lee. JJ seemed (in my non statistical perception) would go down hill after a few drops (and some sacks). Lee, no really.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 5, 2011 8:33 AM CDT up reply actions
Good Stuff Poseur
Now (and I know it’s easy to ask since I’m not doing the work), any way to compare JJ’s BEST (as opposed to last) 5 games last season with JL’s 5 games this season (which I think we can agree are his best overall)? And in your calculations, do his last 5 games include the Cotton Bowl?
I'm reluctant
I’d rather use “best stretch” than simply cherry pick games. And, yes, it includes the Cotton Bowl.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
Thanks to your system for agreeing...
“JJ has never had 5 games in a row running the offense and throwing the ball as well as Lee has so far.”
For what it’s worth…
I don't know what the numbers mean, but that feels better.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 5, 2011 8:34 AM CDT up reply actions
I was about to post that...
you need to rethink your system.
I saw a similar breakdown, based on highest scoring game...
JJ had more passing yards, higher completion%, 2 TDs to 4Tds passing, and 2INT to Lee’s 1. This didn’t include his rushing stats, either.
Eye right blahgs.
That's what I was interested in. Closer than I expected.
To my eye, the offense looks more fluid with Lee, even last year. But I agree that JJ would need a chance post Crow to make any real conclusions about that this year.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions
I noted this a few weeks back
Here:
The little things have absolutely improved — team passing efficiency, first-down yards per play, third-down conversion rate and red-zone stats are all up. And just like with Bama, LSU can have a pretty good offense by doing those things well. They can string together long drives and eat up time of possession, so long as Jarrett Lee continues to avoid turnovers.
The 2010 offense had a little more pop in the running game, but couldn’t sustain it consistently. 2011 is overall, more efficient in terms of stringing together drives, but without that extra pop one has to wonder if they can keep that up.
And that also goes back to what I’ve noted in the last few days about the offensive line.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
I don't have any #s in front of me
but I would also hazard a guess or average 3rd down distances are shorter this year too leading to better drive sustainability.
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." - H. L. Mencken
by Curtis Bleaux on Oct 4, 2011 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Offense is certainly smoother this year...
Very few substitution penalties, no 12 men in the huddle (until JJ returned, yikes!), getting to the line in a good manner, etc.
The question (that cannot be answered yet) is, why? Is it merely getting rid of Crowton and having greater continuity with Les and Studthorpe? Is it merely Jarrett Lee’s insertion into the lineup? Is it just the signs of improvement over the course of many years?
From what I’ve seen, all the credit is being given to Lee. I’m not saying that’s NOT true, but I’m not saying it is true either.
Eye right blahgs.
Very true.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 4:52 PM CDT up reply actions
Right
And I don’t know that the comparison I’m suggesting will explain “smoothness.” However, it will, at least, compare pre-Kragthorpe JJ with post-Kragthorpe JL.
JL’s stats from 5 games this year vs JJ’s stats from 5 best games last year, INCLUDING Cotton Bowl and INCLUDING rushing yards.
This will give us a comparison of contribution to offensive production
No, the stats won't...
give a breakdown of what portion of the offensive improvement if rom Krags, Stud, the o-liine, the WR’s, the running backs, and the field position from the kicking game. But the offense has been more effective and consistent game after game this season, and Lee has been the QB. That’s what we know. Low TO’s, ball control, converting on third downs, and red zone performance. Maybe JJ would have done better, but there is no way to show that at present.
We are running a system now that is suited to Lee. We are undefeated and ranked #1. After watching our HC for all these past seasons I doubt he changes anything a whole lot until he absolutely has to. And that’s the way it should be.
As far as the JJ can run thing goes, so can Ware, Ford, Blue, Shepard, Beckham, Randle, McGee, Landry – to name a few. There’s only one ball and four downs a series. Which of those guys does JJ run better than?
BamaBamaBama
The running game isn’t good enough to make up for what is still a very mediocre passing game statistically. Bama is going to pressure the shit out of Lee, and if he starts chucking shit up off his back foot against their secondary, it could get ugly.
You have been mad and drunken, furious and wild, filled with hatred and despair...but so have we - Thomas Wolfe, inadvertently commenting on college football.
Yep...
all those projected picks will be devastating. If they happen that is. I’m not conceding anything to Alabama. They’ll have to actually do it. Then I’ll give them credit.
"Projected picks"
It is possible to judge a quarterback’s play based on more than just whether he throws an interception or not on a particular pass.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Trying to judge...
a QB’s future play is a little trickier. That’s a crapshoot. That’s why I said projected, as in they didn’t but these will.
I'm not conceding anything to them either
They should be worried about their shaky offense against our D as well. The bottom line, though, is that the offense has not been good enough up to this point to really move the ball against them. That goes for Florida, too. 28 points (offensively) against UK is maybe half that against Florida. The offense needs to play better. I’m not saying it can’t, but the claim that everything is fine and we shouldn’t rock the boat is mistaken. We need to do everything possible to improve the offense, and that includes (in my opinion) using JJ in some shape or form.
You have been mad and drunken, furious and wild, filled with hatred and despair...but so have we - Thomas Wolfe, inadvertently commenting on college football.
I don't think we have any real...
measurement about how we’ll move the ball against them. We have been a very basic I form ISO team with a play action pass game this year and our consistency so far has been due to improved play from two positions, QB and FB. Facing an undersized Florida O recruited for the spread with two smurfs running and Burton at FB is not a good judge of how that great Bama D will fare against Stampley, Coleman, Ware, Ford, and Blue. And we have a couple of smurfs on our own to throw into the mix.
We’ve run OK on Bama for the last three years. I expect we’ll do better this year. Our FB’s are worlds better, and they are the key to the ISO run game.
Whoever is at QB just needs to be solid and execute well, especially off the 7 step play action drops. We have the WR’s to get open against them.
by pttigris on Oct 5, 2011 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
to yail...
Oh noes, the sky is falling.
I seem to remember a lot of the same commentary directed at JJ before the Bama game last year
we've also played a pretty tough schedule this year
and we don’t have Ridley – who was a more consistent back (arguably) than Ware and Ford.
With JJ's highest scoring...
out of 27 and Lee’s out of 12.
Ok…
But you think their passing and rushing stats don't involve the rest of the offense?
No LSU QB has ever recorded a stat by himself. Not a TD, not a yard of passing, not an INT, not a sack not a fumble, nothing. Every play has involved the rest of the offense to some degree. Eliminating a stat because you believe it reflects contributions of other players can only logically lead to the conclusion of not comparing any stats; there clearly are none that do not rely on other players.
And why would you choose to cherrypick Jefferson’s best 5 games to compare to Lee’s last 5 games? Would you like to see us go another 2+ years to see 5 more performances of that quality (the length of time it has taken Jefferson to rack up those “best” 5 performances), or just 5 more weeks (the amount of time it’s taken Lee to rack up those 5 games)? Cherrypicking is always suspect. Applied unilaterally, it is downright propogandist.
by King Joey on Oct 6, 2011 2:37 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Who came in when...
LSU absolutely, positively had to get it there right away. Not Fedex, and not JJ either.
If the coaches named JJ the starter because they knew what they were doing what does that say about who they think can pass.
That was last year – maybe JJ has improved under Krags. I’m sure we’ll see.
In 2010, sometimes it was Lee
Other times it was JJ.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
When did JJ...
pass us to a win late in the game. Just asking.
Aside from Tenn and Fla I mostly remember the D hanging on late in the close ones.
I would say the Bama game last year
Yeah, Lee hit the big third down at the end once JJ got hurt, but Jefferson catcthing fire got the team back in that game after the half.
And there’s also the Ole Miss game. He and the offense met the bell when they needed to as the defense struggled.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
And there’s also the Ole Miss game
Wasn’t he the Offensive Player of the Week for that?
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
I've read no comments yet,
as I’m on the road coming back home from Mississippi (visiting/helping family). I was surprised, and a little disappointed though that I was the first person to rec this, as it captured some important ideas that are not easy to talk about. This stuff is essential to talk about, as the nastiness of our Southern past is, quite frankly, still airing out a bit.
Writing this took courage Poseur, and I’m really glad you did it. I won’t be able to read the comments or take part in its discussion until I get back tonight (I’m at a Starbucks just south of Memphis caffeining up), but I’m looking forward to it.
Respect the bucket, son.
The kindest way to view the boo-birds...
is to assume race, or even liking or disliking Jefferson is irrelevant – they simply disagree with trying to fix what ain’t broke. The team’s rolling without Jefferson and putting him back in the mix is too risky.
The harshest way to view them is to assume they’re all racists who never liked Jefferson anyway and would use any excuse to oppose his presence on the field.
I think there are fans who fall into both categories. You could probably ask 20 people why they booed and get 20 different explanations.
I think where the racial identity factor truly comes into play is not that LSU fans dislike Jordan Jefferson because he is black. I think it’s more that they identify with Jarrett Lee, in part because he is white.
I think a lot of LSU fans, the ones you see walking around in “LEE-demption” and ‘BeLEEve" shirts, look at Jarrett Lee and they see what they’d like to think about themselves. Someone who might not have the best natural athletic abilities. Doesn’t have Jamarcus Russell’s arm or Jordan Jefferson’s feet. Had some tough times. But what he has is guts, fortitude, a strong work ethic, character to take blame for his mistakes and strive to do better. He had a nightmare of a freshman year, but he’s hung in there, improved, and he’s led the team to a perfect record and a number one ranking.
Now these guys see Lee’s starting spot threatened by Jefferson (though Miles has been pretty clear this isn’t the case). In their eyes Jefferson isn’t as hard of a worker or as good of a leader as Lee. He’s a guy with some natural athletic ability who doesn’t “deserve” to play for LSU. In their view, he’s had every opportunity and he pissed it away making poor choices. And they’re not about to let “their guy” lose his spot to THAT guy.
I think that’s why people are so mad about Miles “letting” Jefferson score the touchdown that Lee had “earned.” They see it as a microcosm of what they’re afraid is going to happen – Lee does all the grunt work and Jefferson waltzes in and takes all the glory.
So whatever the reason for the booing
It only proves a good number of people are just plain stupid. You don’t trust Miles to make decisions but yet many people still worship Saban despite his genius ass not being able to make up his mind throughout the 04 season of which QB to play & his jockeying of the QBs probably cost us the Auburn game directly that year.
As Poseur said, other QBs & players have been booed for their performances, JJ was booed for just coming on to the field. And AFTER scorind the damn TD, was still booed a bit. So, a QB who scores a TD gets booed b/c of some stupid “Lee’s drive,” “Miles’ decision,” “lack of trust in Miles” etc.
At the end of the day it smells a bit of racism to me but it’s all day & thrice on Sunday DUMB. I don’t even know why I complain anymore, we’re talking about a good bit of the fanbase that still loves to jump back into Catastrophe Syndrome at every failed drive, INT thrown, etc. I’m just glad I’m not such a superfan that I ever have to explain what I’m booing since I will never understand booing your own team. Did you boo your kids when they f*ck up or strike out too, boo birds?
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." - H. L. Mencken
It is the better path.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Touché!
:)
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." - H. L. Mencken
by Curtis Bleaux on Oct 4, 2011 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions
Yes, you definitely spark conversations. Racism is unfortunately an ugly part of society that can not be escaped no matter what country or continent you are in or on. Racism happens in all societies whether they are white, black, brown or yellow it doesn’t make exception to color. To try and put the blame the booing of Jordan Jefferson on color or race is itself racist, because there were white, black, brown & yellow booing Jordan Jefferson Saturday in Tiger Stadium. So to try and blame it on White racist is wrong. Am I a white racist – absolutely not and I deplore what they stand for just as I deplore what Black racists stand for, which is hatred of a fellow man because of the color of their skin. Nor am I a liberal idiot, in fact I am conservative in my thinking. I just have always believed that man should try and get a long no matter what the color of their skin.
That being said what you should be asking is what kind of moron fans we Tiger Nation have to sit there and boo Jordan Jefferson when he has been paying the price for his actions. 1. He lost his starting job, 2. He is still be charged with a misdemeanor, 3. He will probably be sued civilly, 4. Mentally he has been going through a very tough 8 weeks – self inflicted obviously but he is still a young man that made a mistake. The mistake he is paying for and will continue to do so, so as fellow human beings and Tiger Fans we should give him a break, he is still a young kid and we have to remember that. We should have faith in Les Miles and accept that he has taken the steps necessary and punished the players accordingly which I believe. We as Tiger Fans should NOT boo and players we should have more class than that!!! And as a blogger, sports writer or whatever you deem yourself, hopefully you can see that it was not just the white tiger nations booing Jordan Jefferson but it was all colors of the LSU Nation and for that we should all be embarrassed, I know I am!!!!
Its not as simple as
White folk booing JJ because he is black. if that was the case they would be booing any and all black players everytime they took the field.
IF there is any racism involved in the decision to Boo JJ its because its a black QB taking playing time away from a white QB. And in some deluded way there are Tiger “fans” that believe that we can only WIN National Championships with a white QB at the helm.
As Wild as We wanna be
A white QB, AND my lucky underwear from 2003 - 2011.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 4, 2011 5:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Thanks for bringing all this up....
I especially like that you tried to move the dialogue to how this sport is mainly black kids playing for white men, that the blogs are lily white, etc…..I would have liked to have seen more discussion of that. I applaud you for writing this article and the introspection. Frankly, this discussion is sucking the fun out of being number 1 and undefeated. Since both guys have been on the team, we’ve needed them both. One or both of them has stepped up and played. Sometimes, the results weren’t great, but at the end of the day, we’ve needed them both. I have a problem with the premise that because he made a lousy decision on his own time, JJ is deemed to be a lousy player. Personal life choices are not always indicative of professional ones. Neither JJ or Lee has been great. In my humble opinion, they have both endured cruelty from the fan base. I can’t say that I recall either of them taking responsibility for their performance or not, but I can say that they have publicly supported each other. And frankly, the team and Coach Miles’ opinions of these guys are more important than anyone of the fans. So boo birds, you don’t want him to play, fine, but its not your call. We won the game and are undefeated. Quit your damn whining and enjoy the ride.
I especially like that you tried to move the dialogue to how this sport is mainly black kids playing for white men, that the blogs are lily white, etc…..I would have liked to have seen more discussion of that.
Honestly, same here, I was hoping to use the QB situation as a jumping off point to a greater discussion on race and sports, but that was not to be.
Frankly, this discussion is sucking the fun out of being number 1 and undefeated. Since both guys have been on the team, we’ve needed them both. One or both of them has stepped up and played.
Agreed. I’m not going to bring it up again, and another point of this post is to get it all out on the table, and contained in one comment section so we don’t keep treading the same ground. It was the idea nayway, we’ll see if it works.
Neither JJ or Lee has been great. In my humble opinion, they have both endured cruelty from the fan base. I can’t say that I recall either of them taking responsibility for their performance or not, but I can say that they have publicly supported each other. And frankly, the team and Coach Miles’ opinions of these guys are more important than anyone of the fans.
They certainly can relate to each other’s treatment at the hands of hostile fans. And Lee and Jefferson have both handled the boo birds with class. Though, admittedly, I was more interested in the comments being made about them, not just the boos.
We won the game and are undefeated. Quit your damn whining and enjoy the ride.
That was last week’s post. Seriously.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
Uninformed, Imbecilic Rhetoric
This has to be among the very worst columns I’ve ever read. The author obviously didn’t watch a single LSU game last season, lest he would surely know that the fans displeasure with Jordan Jefferson’s return has everything to do with the fact that for two years he has proven himself to be an inaccurate, indecisive and mistake-prone quarterback who lacks the capability to lead the team to a fourth championship. Lee on the other hand at least has shown improvement while Jefferson has regressed.
The same fans who were screaming for Jefferson during Lee’s first year are the same ones complaining now that Coach Miles has granted Jefferson the capability to sabotage another LSU season.
The author of this column must be a disgruntled Ohio State fan with nothing better to do than spout off purposeless tripe.
...
You have been mad and drunken, furious and wild, filled with hatred and despair...but so have we - Thomas Wolfe, inadvertently commenting on college football.
How do you know he regressed?
He hasn’t thrown a pass all year. The last game he played was the Cotton Bowl, which was at least as good as any game Lee has had this year. Nevermind.
You have been mad and drunken, furious and wild, filled with hatred and despair...but so have we - Thomas Wolfe, inadvertently commenting on college football.
Wow you joined up just to post all of that?
I don’t know whether to laugh or be complimented.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
A couple things...
1) exactly how did JJ sabotage an LSU season? we went 11-2 last year! Regardless of how it looked we won games. So to pretend that LSU has gone through a woeful amount of disappointment at the hands of JJ is completely untrue. Furthermore, if JJ sabotaged an LSU season the so did JL. Granted, he has played pretty well, but lets not forget his past struggles.
2) He came in to run a quarterback sneak. It’s not like he ran an entire possession (until later in the game) and Les came out and said JJ is now the starter again and JL will be confined to holding TC’s clipboard.
3) We havent even seen what Jordan can do as far as throwing the ball. If we can say that JL has improved with the departure of GC and subsequent hire of Krags then who’s to say JJ hasn’t?
3)
Actual facts
Lee on the other hand at least has shown improvement while Jefferson has regressed.
Demonstrably false. Well, the part about Jefferson, Lee has improved. But so has JJ. Last year, his ATVSQBPI (a fancy way of saying adjusted yards/attempt) was 5.545. Lee’s was 5.424. Lower, but negligible difference, really.
But here’s the interesting part: JJ’s ATVSQBPI in the first 8 games was 4.000. In the last five games, he wrested the starting job back by posting an ATVSQBPI of 7.916. Actually, all of his numbers improved dramatically (remember this 8 games vs. 5 games)
Pct: From 52.9% to 61.6%
Yds: 623 to 788
TD: 2 to 5
INT: 8 to 2
Jefferson improved radically in the last third of the season.
The author of this column must be a disgruntled Ohio State fan with nothing better to do than spout off purposeless tripe.
Now, that’s just low.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
ERROR! ERROR!
Thanks to Zimm above, who pointed me to fixing a problem in my formulas.
JJ’s last 5 games last season: 6.771
JJ’s first 8 games last season: 5.493
Lee’s first 6 games last season: 6.382
Lee’s last 6 games last season: 3.091
Lee’s first 5 games this season: 7.866
JJ 2010 overall: 5.997
Lee 2010 overall: 4.919
Apologies for the error.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
Compare JJ's ATVSBQPI from 2008 to 2009 to 2010.
I’d be interested to see how much he improved from year to year, rather than within a single year.
2011 LSU Accolades:
"Imperial Intergalactic Overlord Barkevious Mingo" -Andy Staples
"If Alabama's defense is a boa constrictor, slowly sucking the life out of opposing offenses, LSU's is more like a goon that throws the offense into a burlap sack and starts beating it with a stick." -Matt Hinton
"Oregon’s Chip Kelly is generally considered a coaching mastermind. Miles toyed with him here Saturday night." -Dan Wetzel, Yahoo Sports
"I don’t want to say that I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson…..but I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson." -Les Miles
Ummm....
lacks the capability to lead the team to a fourth championship.
OMGZ JJ doesn’t have the LEADERSHIP11one
…now take a minute and soak in the ironic implications.
/shudders
Lee on the other hand at least has shown improvement while Jefferson has regressed.
You sir, are a moron.
Respect the bucket, son.
And people say I'm the one that shouts people down
;-)
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
never said "the one", just the worst.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 5, 2011 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Says the guy that went into 3rd degree mode
Because of me saying that Jordan Jefferson had “a couple” of clunkers last season.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
You sir, have a thin hide.
You call my questioning the phase few, going to some 3rd degree? Dude, you need to re read your posts. If that was 3rd, you live in hyperdrive. I didn’t impure your intelligence. I didn’t declare you had no this or that to support it. I just raised an eyebrow at seeking JJ in such a good light. That is civil disagreement. I know you are a professional blogger, so you interact differently than other professionals, but you should spend some time reading your old posts when you are in a happy place.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 5, 2011 9:01 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
You sir, have a thin hide.
I would point out the obvious ‘pot calling the kettle black’ here but giving the topic I might be called a racist….
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
I dunno Gregatron
@the part where he says “Coach Miles has granted Jefferson the capability to sabotage another LSU season.” is particularly convincing. @
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." - H. L. Mencken
by Curtis Bleaux on Oct 4, 2011 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Us Ohio State fans would've worked in at least three uncomfortable Civil War references.
Give me some (dis)credit, dude!
Be the change you wish to see in the world.
Follow @semicorrect
Different view point of the boo's
While some boo’s are directed directly at JJ, I think alot of them are towards Miles. What better way to let the coach know that you dont approve of him messing up a good routine than to express it through 90k fans all at once. I believe the same is true about Lee his freshman year. The fans were trying to communicate with their head coach that they demanded a change. I know there are some exceptions, but I refuse to believe that the entire LSU fan base is harsh enough to boo a college aged kid that, outside of one mistake, has been a pretty class act.
Sorry, the "we were booing the decision" line, is a complete crock.
This has been covered. People were booing Jordan Jefferson.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Yeah - actually Billy - you saying that doesn't make it true
Again – I’m not a fan of boing the home team or the home coach – but fans can and do make a distinction between booing hte player and the play call – whether the players see that distinction or not.
GT, you can say that all you want
I was at the game. JJ went out on that field, and he was booed. People can tell themselves what they want, but anybody that has paid any attention to his treatment by this fan base in the last year (hell, his treatment in this thread alone), could see exactly what was happening.
And people think I’m argumentative…
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
And its not like I'm the only one that said it.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
but fans can and do make a distinction between booing hte player and the play call – whether the players see that distinction or not.
It’s not just the players, NO ONE can see the distinction. It’s just a rationalization of the booer in order to not take responsibility for his or her actions.
Really, you want people to believe than someone was booing the play call of a quarterback sneak on 4th and inches from the goalline?
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
Whatevever, saying it doesn't make it true, right?
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
no - someone was booing the play call of switching QBs on a QB sneak from the 6 inch line
Look – we had a lousy record last year of switching QBs on drives. Bringing in JJ at that point was an obviously controversial move. I love Miles -and I want JJ to succeed – and i think it was a good playcall. But I can understand why plenty of people would criticize it.
I don't grasp why this line of thinking is so hard to accept.
I agree the players can’t tell the difference and that is why you should not do it. And I’d agree a good percentage was directed at JJ. But from my couch I was having flash backs to Tenn ‘10 when Lee drove down and then JJ came in and … you know what happened. Here, the man has had on practice in 5 weeks. We have 0 points on the board. It’s 4th down. On bobbled snap (from rust) and crap just hit the fan.
I have no problem with the later JJ series as the game was under control and he ran the ball. But I think the TD play was dangerous.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 5, 2011 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
This Zimm
is the point I’ve been trying to make. Boing is unhelpful and shouldn’t be done. But that doesn’t make it racially motivated. It makes it – oh my gosh – Tennessee failure – please don’t do that again – motivated.
The lack of the players not being able to make the distinction
Just makes it even more dumb to boo. The fact that you can’t qualify a boo is why it’s dumb to boo your team, the coach, the player, the decision, etc.
if the booing wasn’t for JJ, then why did people when JL came back in on the next drive? B/c I’m sure that 1st down call on the next drive was so crucial amirite?
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." - H. L. Mencken
by Curtis Bleaux on Oct 4, 2011 9:40 PM CDT up reply actions
I’m not even saying that I disagree with the decision to bring JJ in for THAT play. Hell, I’m not even saying that I agree with the people that were booing. But I do know alot of people that said, “I’m gunna be real upset if Miles takes JL out at this point”. I’m sure those people had it in their mind that they would boo if JL was taken out before the game even started. Further, I don’t see how this has anything to do with race… I am confident that the same would happen to JL if the roles were reversed.
I’ve lived in the South my whole life, and I’m not naive enough to try to convince anyone that there aren’t still incidents where racism exists. However, this is simply just not one of those incidents…
by msmi146 on Oct 5, 2011 1:55 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I feel incredibly confident saying
That there would not have been ANY booing had anybody else besides Jordan Jefferson gone out there to sneak that run in. And that’s mostly because people like Houseplants think bad things about Jefferson because they don’t think he’s a good player, and they think that there’s some grand coaching conspiracy to play him over Lee, which is, of course, ludicrous.
And, we’ve said several times now, that race was likely a small factor in this. But it was still a factor for some people. Probably not a high number (we certainly hope its not a high number), but it’s still out there.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
To bring this full circle, I have a hard time meshing this statement with this
There’s been a lot of debate around the LSU-interwebz regarding the quality of Lee’s performance. Frankly, I’ve never seen so many message-board posters lining up to fellate a quarterback, just because he passed for 98 yards. Seriously folks. Lee completed 45-percent of his passes last week, and the Humanoids are praising this as some sort of stellar performance (I notice that the same people doing this tend to be the ones that spend most of their time on the internet bitching about Jordan Jefferson or hoping he gets sent to Angola, but that’s a whole other big-ass can of worms).
If racism is a small factor why say those same people that “praise” the LSU QB’s performance in whipping the #3 team have a racist agenda?
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 5, 2011 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions
Where does it say in that paragraph
That those people have a racist agenda? My stance on this has been consistent. The constant booing of JJ/constant praising of Jarrett Lee for every little thing he does by a portion of the fan base has a lot more to do with the fact that people don’t like Jefferson as a player than it does race, although race is a factor in it.
I think a better question is why you come in guns blazing every time this topic comes up.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
*a factor for some (hopefully a small amount) of people.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
In fact, on another note
You later come in and accuse me of “seeking JJ in such a good light” all because I said that he had a “couple” of clunkers last season, when my responses should have indicated that the choice of words were nothing more than a figure of speech?
And you think I’m the one with the problem here?
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Brother if you that is guns blazing, hah.
Hoping a man goes to Angola based on a racist agenda is as harsh a charge as I think you could level at a human. You made clear in the exchange I was naive if I didn’t think race was part of it.
You could have easily said, “no, I mean people that think he is guilty or a crappy QB” but that was not your point. As I understood the conversation, that was the race element you were inferring, and then confirming. I disagreed, and here we are. Just wanted to bring it back to the source to see how this open dialogue had helped crystallize the position.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 5, 2011 9:36 AM CDT up reply actions
Hoping a man goes to Angola based on a racist agenda is as harsh a charge as I think you could level at a human
WHO IN THE HECK SAID HOPING HE GOES TO ANGOLA IS BASED ON A RACIST AGENDA???
YOU ARE ADDING IN YOUR AGENDA, JUST FREAKING STOP!
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
Use more bold, it really works to sell your point.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 5, 2011 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions
and with that, I think our positions are clear.
Unchanged, but clear. People can re read the exchange after Kentucky, as summarizing them here would do no good.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 5, 2011 9:39 AM CDT up reply actions
Yeah, and my first comment to you there was
And it’s not even about race (though to pretend that it’s not involved would be naive), its about idiocy and ignorance. People don’t like Jefferson because they don’t think he’s a good player. Period. They dress it up with other BS, but that’s the crux of it. To dismiss it because we don’t want to hear about race would be every bit as misguided as to say that race is all its about.
So yeah, I’ve been pretty consistent on this issue. It’s not all about race, its mostly about the player, but saying that there’s no race involved is every bit as stupid as saying that race is the only thing involved.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Yeah, this
Hoping a man goes to Angola based on a racist agenda
Is nowhere in that paragraph. You’re seeing things you want to see there. You’re inferring things that I have not EVER “confirmed.”
In fact, my message has been consistent and has probably been restated a dozen or so times now. My position is crystallized. Yours seems to be based upon a misunderstanding.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Well that would be a relief to many.
Back to work for me, time to move on from this issue.
I mean, “BACK TO WORK” SO SOUTHERN MAN CAN UNDERSTAND ME.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 5, 2011 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions
You position has been consistently nothing
You refuse to come out and state that anyone was motivated by racism, but keep making the nebulous claim that racism “is a factor”. If racism is a factor, then someone has be acting on racist feelings, which makes them a racist. Come out and say it and make this discussion meaningful, or just drop it and quit trying to soothe your own ego by pretending to be all courageous for “taking on” a controversial issue. You haven’t taken on anything, and haven’t said anything meaningful whatsoever. Neither has Poseur, because neither of you will stop mealy-mouthing your rhetoric. If you think people were acting racist, then freakin’ call their behaviour racist. If you don’t , then quit throwing that freakin’ word around. It’s horribly irresponsible and chickenshit to boot.
by King Joey on Oct 7, 2011 4:50 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Its funny, you think we're being simplistic
It doesn’t get much more simplistic than this:
If racism is a factor, then someone has be acting on racist feelings, which makes them a racist.
And your responses have clearly demonstrated that the last thing you really want in this thread is any sort of meaningful discussion. You’ve attacked us for even bringing it up, and you’re doing a poor job of it.
You’re right. Nobody in any stadium of 90,000 people anywhere on planet Earth has any racist feelings whatsoever.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
It boils down to these things...
1) Subconsciously, people will go with whatever they can relate best with. The majority of whites can relate to JL and the majority of blacks can relate to JJ. The biggest tragedy of our society is that it is still so segregated, and since that’s the case, it is difficult to understand another reality.
2) The argument that people cheer for the other great black players so race must not be an issue is largely bogus. example: I am black. I went to a predominantly white school in baton rouge. 90% of my friends are white. Given my private school upbringing and speech my friends accept me for who I am. People look at me as “one of the good ones.” This is mainly due to the abundance of negative images of blacks in the media but that’s an entirely different story. Basically, this scenario is just being presented on the field. JJ’s perceived lack of eloquence behind a mic or his body language on the field coupled with the fact that he is, at best, an average quarterback make it easy for people to label him a “thug” and greet him with boos even if they do not know him at all.
I think that's the thing people are missing
It’s not an absolute you’re either a racist or you’re not type of argumentargument. I personally think that as you said, the lack off JJ’s output, coupled with the fact that he’s black makes it easier for some people, not all people, but some people to turn on him quicker & throw him under the bus with the “thug” moniker.
Personally, I don’t need some statistically viable peer reviewed study like Geaux Tiger seems to want, to prove what anecdotally I’ve seen throughout my almost 20 yrs of supporting LSU football- that there are enough people, whom I mockingly call the LSU Aryan QB Fan Club, that exist & is quite vocal in some games that likely participated in the booing of JJ.
I also think that it’s quite possible for the LSU Aryan QB Fan Club to like victory more than disliking black players enough to cheer for black players when they help us win. But I also think it’s quite possible that when things do go wrong, they’re more apt to jump on guys like JaMarcus & JJ quicker than guys like Flynn & Mauck.
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." - H. L. Mencken
by Curtis Bleaux on Oct 4, 2011 10:02 PM CDT up reply actions
I've noticed the "thug" comments too.
Some people have suggested he grew up poor, asking “how would HE get all those shoes?” which implies he could not afford them. Well… it just so happens the the Jeffersons are financially pretty well off, so yeah, JJ can afford a lot of things other players can’t.
Racist sentiments can be subtle like that. I don’t think that all racism is even conscious, which is a theme Poseur touched on. Not all racism is outright, old school “I dislike black people” racism. Much of it is based on stereotypes, and reliance on those stereotypes to define reality. Sometimes this is relatively harmless, like when I heard an NFL draft analyst a few years back say that JaMarcus Russell was an athletic quarterback in the mold of Michael Vick or Vince Young. Ummm…. wtf? But sometimes this has mch more negative consequences.
How many times has Stephen Garcia been called a thug? How many times has he been booed by his fanbase? And how much trouble has he gotten in over the years compared to JJ?
Respect the bucket, son.
To be fair, he probably has been booed a good bit
But you definitely don’t see “thug” thrown about that often in relation to him.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
by Billy Gomila on Oct 4, 2011 10:20 PM CDT up reply actions
Yeah... he probably has been booed a lot.
But he’s stayed in trouble his entire (highly entertaining) college career. I’m wondering how much of the booing is due to his off-field antics, and how much is due to his actual play. I would think it’s more to do with the latter.
Respect the bucket, son.
Here's a thought.
I wonder how many black fans were booing JJ. I mean, if it had nothing to do with race…
Respect the bucket, son.
Honesty
Probaly slim to none. But black fans tend to keep supporting black players through criminal issues. Mike Vick is still loved by the black fans in Atlanta and hated by the whites. Is it racist? Maybe, but more of cultural differences imo.
by cbkao on Oct 5, 2011 8:12 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
That's a pretty broad brush you're painting with.
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 5, 2011 8:46 AM CDT up reply actions
For the love, I have to completely agree with Zimm on this
Any Broader and you’d be a canyon.
But black fans tend to keep supporting black players through criminal issues. Mike Vick is still loved by the black fans in Atlanta and hated by the whites
Might be the MOST racist thing that has been posted on this board.
Mike Vick is hated by Dog Lovers and loved by football fans (and some, like myself, are torn between the two.)
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
For the love of...
this is stereotyping from seeing a few black people on TV, or in his interactions. It does not mean he is a racist. And the post is not “racist” just because it stereotypes a black group. Again, the definition of racism is a belief in the inferiority of a race, not buying into stereotypes due to lack of personal experience.
You feel better now that we disagree, don’t you… ’-) (Just kidding.)
"They play violent football at risk of injury for their team and for their school. The gift that I'm given is to be allowed to be on the sideline with them and coach them." Les Miles
by ZimmZimmZalaBimm on Oct 5, 2011 9:20 AM CDT up reply actions
MOST
Racist thing said on this board? In no way do I or anyone I know consider myself racist. Dude my cousin, who was raised like a brother to me b/c my dad raised him as his own b/c his dad was never around is black.Grow up. I admit it might be a broad stereotype that I have received from my experiences. But racist? I and others that just stood up for do not think so. I was only making a generalization based on my perception.
by cbkao on Oct 5, 2011 12:18 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Yes
MOST Racist thing said on this board?
It really doesn’t matter that
my cousin, who was raised like a brother to me b/c my dad raised him as his own b/c his dad was never around is black
I never called you a racist, I said that this
But black fans tend to keep supporting black players through criminal issues. Mike Vick is still loved by the black fans in Atlanta and hated by the whites
Might be the MOST racist thing that has been posted on this board.
Unless you are saying that Black People all HATE dogs and are glad he murdered a bunch of them, while White people all have no ability to forgive an allow for second chances then what you said
Might be the MOST racist thing that has been posted on this board
Come to think of it, that would be a pretty racist assumption too so there is no way around it.
Sorry, you feel that way about your fellow man, I’m sure your cousin loves you any way! :-)
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
thats how you always
Get around calling someone something. Ive lingered around here enough to see what kinda person you are. You say insinuate things but when called out on it, you always play that same old card, “I didn’t call you ____”. It’s your chicken shit way. Say what you want about me I really don’t care. And have a blessed day, I’m sure someone loves you. ;)
by cbkao on Oct 5, 2011 3:31 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
this
Unless you are saying that Black People all HATE dogs and are glad he murdered a bunch of them, while White people all have no ability to forgive an allow for second chances
is completely absurd. He said no such thing.
You have been mad and drunken, furious and wild, filled with hatred and despair...but so have we - Thomas Wolfe, inadvertently commenting on college football.
is completely absurd
as is the inference that all the ‘whites’ hate Michael Vick but all the ‘Blacks’ love him.
That’s kind of the point of creating a similarly absurd analogy, you highlight the original absurdity.
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
I don't think it was absurd
Blacks (in general, yes this is a stereotype, no I’m not a racist) tend to stick together a lot. They stick up for their race more than others (at least whites) do, probably due to the obviously horrible history there. I know plenty of people who voted for Obama solely because he was black (like them) and not because of his political views.
You feel better now that we disagree, don’t you…
Actually I do, because this
And the post is not "racist" just because it stereotypes a black groupIs BULL SQUAT
Of course it is racist to proclaim that
Mike Vick is still loved by the black fans in Atlanta and hated by the whites
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
of course it's not racists to say that southern man
unless every major media outlet IN THE WORLD has a racist agenda – since there were literally 100s of TV stories on the differing views of black people and white people in Atlanta about Michael Vick. There was a clear racial divide – with many, many black fans not just defending Vick, but arguing the whole thing was a conspiracy to stop a black QB from starting in the NFL.
I lived in Atlanta at the time and I don't seem to remember that
what I do remember is that a lot of people who happened to be black, white, Hispanic, purple or whatever thought he was a complete waste of a human being for what he did to the dogs and I’m pretty sure they didn’t and don’t care what race he is.
So yes, this
But black fans tend to keep supporting black players through criminal issues. Mike Vick is still loved by the black fans in Atlanta and hated by the whites
Is a racist comment.
I don’t think that means CBKAO is a Klan member but he needs to rethink that perception/stereotype, no?
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
I would stop posting in this thread if I were you SouthernMan.
2011 LSU Accolades:
"Imperial Intergalactic Overlord Barkevious Mingo" -Andy Staples
"If Alabama's defense is a boa constrictor, slowly sucking the life out of opposing offenses, LSU's is more like a goon that throws the offense into a burlap sack and starts beating it with a stick." -Matt Hinton
"Oregon’s Chip Kelly is generally considered a coaching mastermind. Miles toyed with him here Saturday night." -Dan Wetzel, Yahoo Sports
"I don’t want to say that I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson…..but I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson." -Les Miles
by LSU Jonno on Oct 5, 2011 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Why?
Saying Mike Vick is loved by blacks and hated by whites doesn’t come off as racist, really?
I don’t think the guy is a RACIST, but I certainly do think painting all the ‘whites’ with one brush and painting all the ‘blacks’ with another is stereotyping in the worst way, what’s it called again?
Oh yea, “profiling”, it thought that was wrong?
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
It's not racist.
Racist implies that someone thinks they are superior to another race…I don’t see that anywhere.
by Squash on Oct 5, 2011 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
stereotypes don't equal racism
Just b/c he broad brushes a group, that doesn’t constitute racism. Is it racist to say asians kids are better at math than white kids? no….just a stereotype.
I agree w/ GeauxTiger’s definition of racism being a system of thoughts…
Thanks Zandor
And as to your example – I’d say it’s not really even a stereotype to say young asian students are better at math (and science) than young white students. It is a simple statement of fact that can be used to foster stereotypes.
When one attempts to define racism primarily based on how white people react to any particular minority (as Poseur, Billy and others have done), rather than how people of any color respond to a group of people that are different than them, we have lost the content of the word. In our contemporary society an accusation of racism is a slur – much like an accusation of witchcraft in the middle ages. It’s an easy way to ostracize someone from the group.
But racism should never be measured by an individual’s response to one other individual. There are both black and white athletes who are thugs – meaning they take advantage of their abilities and station in life to lord it over others in a variety of ways (think of athetes who have beat their SOs, or dogs, or whatever). This is thuggish behavior. To say Michael Vick behaved like a thug is not to make a racist statement. Similarly, to say that he has shown what seems like true contrition in an attempt to make ammends for his actions is also not racist.
Likewise, to recognize an actual fact- that is that many black people in Atlanta defended Vick purely based on race – and argued that the entire controversy was a “white conspiracy,” is not racist. It is simply acknowledging a true fact.
What would be racist is to say that Vick acted the way he did BECAUSE he is black. That is to say, something about being black made Vick less than fully human, and therefore incapable of recognizing that his actions were wrong, brutal, and cruel.
Of course, virtually no one has made that argument. And yet, in the aftermath of Vick’s actions many were accused of racism…
First of all, HE never said "ALL blacks" or "ALL whites"
That was YOU. The inability to distinguish between generalizations and a universal characteristic is not a pretty disablity. Now, if you insist that you are only disagreeing to the extent that you believe the existence of one single white fan who did not hate Michael Vick would prove his statement wrong, then there is little that can be done for you.
If, on the other hand, you are actually disagreeing with the rational meaning of his comment, that there are strong correlations between the race of fans and their approval/disapproval of Michael Vick, then you should deal with that and quit quibbling over semantics that you inserted in the first place.
by King Joey on Oct 6, 2011 2:49 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Your memory sucks SouthernMan
I was also in Atlanta at the time. There was a clear, undeniable racial split on opinion of Michael Vick.
See this article for the split in the NAACP: http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/20411561/
Or this: http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-vickatatlanta010711
Sp before you go accusing people of being Klan members – go read a little.
THANK YOU for making mypoint.
You posted an article that discusses the SPLIT amongst the NAACP and “Black Leaders” and the “Black Community” so it makes it pretty DAD GUM HARD to say that
Mike Vick is still loved by the black fans in Atlanta
He was still loved by SOME black fans
And since I’m one of “the Whites” who thinks Mike Vick served his time and paid a hefty price I have been glad to see him get a second chance; which he seems to have taken advantage of so I guess that debunks both sides of the RACIST connotation from the original comment.
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
This thread has to be an ATVS record for the amount of comments outside of an in game thread.
2011 LSU Accolades:
"Imperial Intergalactic Overlord Barkevious Mingo" -Andy Staples
"If Alabama's defense is a boa constrictor, slowly sucking the life out of opposing offenses, LSU's is more like a goon that throws the offense into a burlap sack and starts beating it with a stick." -Matt Hinton
"Oregon’s Chip Kelly is generally considered a coaching mastermind. Miles toyed with him here Saturday night." -Dan Wetzel, Yahoo Sports
"I don’t want to say that I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson…..but I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson." -Les Miles
It's the post that just won't die ;-)
But that was pretty predictable from the start given the context.
it wont will it
I tried my damnest not to get sucked into it cause I really hate talking about this kinda thing but here I am. SMH
by cbkao on Oct 5, 2011 3:50 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Poseur posing
Well aren’t you the little journalist? Cowards are always the first to play the race card. They want to be first in line at the “I’m not a racist” ticket window. Which, of course, makes them racists. JJ is a QB who let us down when we needed him and got boo’ed for it; no more, no less.
by Rifle on Oct 5, 2011 11:27 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I thought y'all were booing 'the decision'
Not the player lol
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
by Billy Gomila on Oct 5, 2011 12:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Irony
The people who most object to us talking about pssible racial motivations have been the ones one this thread most likely to throw out the “Racist” charge. Again, I’m not accusing anyone of racism. I’m far more interested in our own racial attitudes. Which is why I tried to focus on my own. Look within before you look without.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
Yes, you are Poseur
However, I do think racism is a factor in Jefferson’s treatment
You can’t have racism without racists, Poseur. You may differentiate between the raving, cloak-wearing, cross-burning Klansman at a rally, and the guy who boos Jefferson a little bit more than he would a white QB; but that is a matter of degree. The charge is the same, and it is “racist”. And you have solidly leveled that charge at an unspecified number of unnamed fans in Tiger Stadium Saturday. The problem with your article (and comments) is that it is a half-measure, where only full or none are productive. If you want to address the issue of racism, find the racism and point out those practicing it. Delineate their racist actions and words, and call them out (preferrably by name). Bring actual racist actions and words to light and sanitize them with your disinfectant flashlight. And if you aren’t, then don’t aggravate the situation with generalizations, cliches and regurgitated mealey-mouthed rhetoric. Just ignore it if you aren’t willing to confront it with integrity and directness.
by King Joey on Oct 6, 2011 3:01 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
This. Poseur's argument has been "I'm not saying a bunch of LSU fans are racists....
But we can’t deny that race was a motivating factor in their treatment of JJ."
What? Well that’s clear.
What about black fans that booed pick-six Lee his freshman year? What about black fans that booed JJ last week? Were they racist for that? Of course not.
I'm sure some of them were, yeah.
And we never argued otherwise lol. This whole thing where people are falling back on to the booing of Lee to justify booing Jefferson (oh wait…I thought people weren’t booing Jefferson?) is also a crock. Booing Lee then was every bit as shitty as booing Jefferson now. We’ve never said otherwise.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
So by your standard
Nobody should ever say that there is drunkeness in Tiger Stadium either, right? I mean, you can’t have drunkeness without drunks right? I mean, you may differentiate between the falling down, vomiting types with slurred speech and the guy who’s maybe just had 1 or 2 too many, but that is a matter of degree. But the charge is thee same, and it is “drunk.”
And to speak about Tiger Stadium in generalizations, cliches and regurgitate mealy-mouthed rhetoric only aggravates the situation. So y’all here that? No more talking about drunk people in Tiger Stadium unless you can provide a detailed list of names of the people that could be verified to be intoxicated.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
weak comparison...
No more talking about drunk people in Tiger Stadium unless you can provide a detailed list of names of the people that could be verified to be intoxicated.
drunkeness is a topic that doesn’t require near the care of “racism” b/c it has none of the same connotations. You also miss his entire point that speaking in vague generalities does little to help the “conversation.” He isn’t advocating absolute certainty as a prerequisite to commenting, just that direct allegations are much more useful if you want to “help the conversation.”
by Zandor435 on Oct 6, 2011 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
VERY weak comparison...
Drunkeness is something you can outwardly see. I can tell someone is drunk (or at least make a logical conclusion) by their eyes, speech, lack of coordination, smell etc.
I can’t tell if someone is racist by observing who they boo.
2011 LSU Accolades:
"Imperial Intergalactic Overlord Barkevious Mingo" -Andy Staples
"If Alabama's defense is a boa constrictor, slowly sucking the life out of opposing offenses, LSU's is more like a goon that throws the offense into a burlap sack and starts beating it with a stick." -Matt Hinton
"Oregon’s Chip Kelly is generally considered a coaching mastermind. Miles toyed with him here Saturday night." -Dan Wetzel, Yahoo Sports
"I don’t want to say that I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson…..but I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson." -Les Miles
It's a weak counter
For a weak argument.
The notion that we can’t say that “anybody” in Tiger Stadium is racist because we don’t know them personally is ridiculous.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
by Billy Gomila on Oct 6, 2011 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions
The point isn't that "there aren't any racists in TS"
The point is, we have no clue what the motivation was behind the booing.
2011 LSU Accolades:
"Imperial Intergalactic Overlord Barkevious Mingo" -Andy Staples
"If Alabama's defense is a boa constrictor, slowly sucking the life out of opposing offenses, LSU's is more like a goon that throws the offense into a burlap sack and starts beating it with a stick." -Matt Hinton
"Oregon’s Chip Kelly is generally considered a coaching mastermind. Miles toyed with him here Saturday night." -Dan Wetzel, Yahoo Sports
"I don’t want to say that I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson…..but I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson." -Les Miles
We never said that racism was the only motivation either
We said that it’s pretty likely that for a small portion, it played a role. I bet alcohol played a role for some people too. Just because I’m not out there breathalyzing people doesn’t mean I can’t suggest that either.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
by Billy Gomila on Oct 6, 2011 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions
how many people do you think
Have been to a game at Tiger Stadium that can’t give a more specific description of drunkedness witnessed there than, “alcohol may have been a factor for some people”?
I can list several specific behaviors that specifically tend to identify the drunk people among the crowd: they slur their words, stumble around and smell like bourbon (for starters). See how that works? I don’t just leave some generalization that could apply to anyone in the greater population (on this case, fans in the stadium; in y’all’s case, people who were booing). So when I say there were people on the stadium who were stumbling, slurring and smelling of bourbon, an alcohol was a factor in those people’s behaviour, them it is clear which people I applying that label to. When you say of the people booing that, “race was a factor for some people,” you are not making any distinction whatsoever between the people with no racial motive at all and the nebulous “some” against whom you are leveling that assessment.
If the booing itself is not racist, then wouldn’t you have needed some other clue from their behaviour to suggest that race was a factor for them? All I’m asking is what that clue wa in the stadium?
by King Joey on Oct 7, 2011 12:35 PM CDT via iPhone app up reply actions
You can’t have racism without racists, Poseur. You may differentiate between the raving, cloak-wearing, cross-burning Klansman at a rally, and the guy who boos Jefferson a little bit more than he would a white QB; but that is a matter of degree. The charge is the same, and it is "racist".
I’m not as comfrotable with labelling people as you would like me to be. I think the idea of labelling epople X or Y is completely counter-productive to my stated intent, an open dialogue. If we are more concerned with tarring and feathering by throwing out harmful labels at people, then all we get is dfensiveness and absolutely no productive dialoge. I think it’s a horrible idea and completely reject your premise.
Have you ever lied before? Just once? About something insignificant? well, you lied, so therefore you are a Liar. It’s just a matter of degree.
Have you even taken something before? Maybe a Post-It note from the office supply room. congrats, you’re a Thief. As you say, it’s all a matter of degree.
Ever jay-walk? Speed? Violate some portion of the criminal code no matter how obscure or arcane, regardless of whether you were caught or not? congrats, you are a Criminal. Only Criminals commit Crime,, right?
The slap-em-with-a-label argument is one that is completely unworkable and more concerned with mroalizing than actually talking about things. I completely and wholly rehject this line of thinking.
Delineate their racist actions and words, and call them out (preferrably by name)
But I’m not concerned with "labelling racists. I’ve said that repeatedly in this thread. I’m more concerned with our own attitudes. That’s why this article dedicated a lengthy discussion not about other people, but my self. I was talking about my own racism on your sliding scale. so the person I am calling out is me — and asking others to examine their own beliefs.
This is about having a dialogue about race, not trying to engage in name-calling.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
But you have, Poseur
If we are more concerned with tarring and feathering by throwing out harmful labels at people, then all we get is dfensiveness and absolutely no productive dialoge. I think it’s a horrible idea and completely reject your premise
Throwing out a harmful label is exactly what you did, and the way you did it landed it on the broadest group of people possible.
Here’s what’s happening: you said, flat out, that some of the people who booed Jefferson were motivated in part by racism. That’s not just you, that’s (depending on whose estimate you believe and what percentage you expect “some” to be) a couple of hundred people, possibly as many as a couple of thousand. But the only identifying factor you gave was “people booing Jefferson”. You gave absolutely no identifying behaviour or characteristic to those you label as those for whom “race is a factor” that would distinguish them from anyone else who was booing without racial motivation whatsoever. That means your allegation is just as applicable to each and every individual in that group as it is to the nebulous and unnamed “some” you mentioned. If the guy next to me was booing, I can correctly say to him, “according to Poseur, race is a factor in why you are booing.” That’s a terrible charge and you have (apparently unintentionally) just leveled it at a very large group of people (though small in comparison to an entire Tiger Stadium crowd).
Ever jay-walk? Speed? Violate some portion of the criminal code no matter how obscure or arcane, regardless of whether you were caught or not? congrats, you are a Criminal. Only Criminals commit Crime,, right?Yes, I am. And if being a criminal to any minor degree were a significant issue in our society, I would be suffering consequences for my criminal behaviour. But it’s not. Being a “little bit” racist, however, is a much different issue. Being stuck with that label can seriously jeopardize people’s careers, relationships, etc.
The slap-em-with-a-label argument is one that is completely unworkable and more concerned with mroalizing than actually talking about things. I completely and wholly rehject this line of thinkingThis has nothing to do with slapping labels, Poseur; you’ve already done that to the whole group. What I am talking about is limiting the allegation to those who deserve it, or not making it at all. Again, you made the claim that there was racism in action in the booing, and that is an allegation of racism. You made it. That’s the easy part, the ultimate cop-out. The hard part is standing up to people who are racist, and standing up to the little parts of ourselves that are racists, and calling it out for what it is. When you fall short of that, you are killing any chance at a productive discussion about anything (as evidenced by you own recognition that your post had no meaning or point). You’ve given nothing but cliches, generalizations and groupthink (“everybody’s a little bit racist,” “every big group is going to have some people who are somewhat racist”). How do those things further a meaningful discussion at all?
Again, to be very clear, my objection is that you made claims that racism was a factor for “some” of the people, but offered no identifying behaviour or characteristic other than the fact that they booed. That makes your claim allegation equally applicable to everyone who booed. That is a dangerous and irresponsible claim, imo. That is also precisely the kind of perpetuation of generalizations that give people free reign to stereotype us southerners as a bunch of racist rednecks.
by King Joey on Oct 7, 2011 5:15 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The only thing sadder than these posts
Is the person who’s recommending them.
We get it. Nobody is racist anywhere unless you can prove it with a sworn affidavit signed in triplicate.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
LULWAT?
Coward? Race card? What a bunch of meaningless nonsense you spout just portray your broad race-based anger.
WTF is a race card anyway? Any time a person want to constructively talk about race some idiot come forth with this tired “OMGZ TEH RACE CARD11” shit. Maybe if, you know, used your words instead of using broad terms that have no meaning you could join in a constructive conversation about complex issue. But you can’t… so run along now while the grown fold have a serious discussion.
Respect the bucket, son.
I dont think Poseur
Was accusing anyone of anything. I hate that these threads have become part of our yearly topics but I do thank Poseur for saying let’s get it out the way now so we can focus back on what brings all of us to this site, LSU TIGER FOOTBALL!
Now let’s talk bout that honey badger. He is getting serious heisman hype now and I haven’t seen one thing one here about it. Come on guys let’s get back on track!
by cbkao on Oct 5, 2011 3:13 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
I would like to apologize
If my Vick reference above offended anyone. In no way was I intending negative race connotations at all. I should have worded it differently because I think it got misinterpreted. I still don’t think it was racist however but do apologize. I will not reword it because I feel whatever I would say someone on here might take out of context. Thanks
by cbkao on Oct 5, 2011 5:57 PM CDT via mobile reply actions
I wasn't offended just trying to point out why you can't paint everyone with the same brush
Which has been Billy’s point all along and Poseur made the same point.
Calling everyone who hates JJ a racist is JUST as bad as calling everyone who supports him or, more poignantly supports the coach in making the decision, a race baiter or whatever.
It doesn’t mean there aren’t some who are racist, because there are, but it’s not the only factor, nor is it likely the biggest factor.
I think the real point of all of this is that we are ALL supposed to be Tiger Fans and we have the best dad gum team in the country; can’t we just enjoy that and let the coach manage his team instead of BOOing our own players in our own stadium and acting like children?
and FWIW, I don’t think you are a racist at all – what you said, was a racist comment but I don’t think you put that much thought into it and I’m sure you didn’t mean to come off that way, but the words you used needed to be called out, IMHO.
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
this is
why racism is such a touchy issue. What you take one way, another person takes a totally different way. I agree we shouldn’t boo and support both qbs. And yes it I’d the best dad gum team and coach in the country.
by cbkao on Oct 5, 2011 8:04 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
.
It doesn’t mean there aren’t some who are racist, because there are
Who? Where? Which ones?
You know they are there, fine. Call them out. Call them racists. Say, “YOU, [x], are a racist!” At the very least stand up to your claim and say, “yeah, we’re calling people racists because they are RACISTS, and we know this because they did [x], [y], and [z]!”
Otherwise, no matter how much you protest in doublespeak, you absolutely are floating the racist charge on everyone. Because the evidence you’ve given to support the accusation you just made against the unspecified, unnamed “some”, applies equally to every single person who booed Jefferson on Saturday.
King Joey
Speaking of double speak
You said this
First of all, HE never said “ALL blacks” or “ALL whites” That was YOU. The inability to distinguish between generalizations and a universal characteristic is not a pretty disablity.
But he did say THE Blacks and THE Whites, not some, one or a so he was painting with the BROADEST of brushes and that’s what I called him out on.
Now here you say
Because the evidence you’ve given to support the accusation you just made against the unspecified, unnamed "some", applies equally to every single person who booed Jefferson on Saturday.
So it appears that you employ the double standard.
Moreover, I gave a specific example of a RACIST that I know (or knew) and growing up in Baton Rouge, I knew/know plenty. So for me to say that in my opinion A FACTOR in SOME of the BOOing may have been race is not painting with the same brush by any stretch.
Moreover, and the point I believe Billy and Posuer have made, but I’ll be glad to stand on my own to make it, is that REGARDLESS of the racial factor, to whatever degree, ANYONE WHO BOO’d a player (or a coach, or a decision, or whatever) in Tiger Stadium Saturday shares one trait regardless of race, religion, age or national origin.
And that shared trait is BLATANT STUPIDITY.
There’s your brush, hope you like the pretty colors!
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
Stop posting
2011 LSU Accolades:
"Imperial Intergalactic Overlord Barkevious Mingo" -Andy Staples
"If Alabama's defense is a boa constrictor, slowly sucking the life out of opposing offenses, LSU's is more like a goon that throws the offense into a burlap sack and starts beating it with a stick." -Matt Hinton
"Oregon’s Chip Kelly is generally considered a coaching mastermind. Miles toyed with him here Saturday night." -Dan Wetzel, Yahoo Sports
"I don’t want to say that I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson…..but I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson." -Les Miles
You missed the point
“So it appears that you employ the double standard.”No, I didn’t. I just pointed out that you had added the word “all” to his comment, then used that word to attack it.
“Moreover, I gave a specific example of a RACIST that I know (or knew) and growing up in Baton Rouge, I knew/know plenty. So for me to say that in my opinion A FACTOR in SOME of the BOOing may have been race is not painting with the same brush by any stretch.”And I’ve not objected to your claims about the booing, have I?
by King Joey on Oct 7, 2011 12:46 PM CDT via iPhone app up reply actions
Go back and re-read
I quoted his exact words repeatedly which were
THE Blacks love vick; THE Whites hate vick.
Can’t get much plainer than that and I reject the notion.
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
?
“Moreover, and the point I believe Billy and Posuer have made, but I’ll be glad to stand on my own to make it, is that REGARDLESS of the racial factor, to whatever degree, ANYONE WHO BOO’d a player (or a coach, or a decision, or whatever) in Tiger Stadium Saturday shares one trait regardless of race, religion, age or national origin.
And that shared trait is BLATANT STUPIDITY."
Has that even been questioned, much less debated? Maybe I didn’t read closely enough (there are over 530 comments), but I don’t recall anyone disputing that.
by King Joey on Oct 7, 2011 1:02 PM CDT via iPhone app up reply actions
Has that even been questioned, much less debated?
Dude,
You’ve been badgering people over a position they haven’t taken and you don’t even know what the argument is about.
Try to follow.
Since Shady’s incident MANY people, including myself (repeatedly on this very blog) have been accused of RACE BAITING if we support JJ, or being RACIST if we support JLee and not JJ.
When the BOOing broke out, several people, like Billy G made the point that, while there is probably SOME ignorant racism involved in the BOOing, more than likely they are just idiots who don’t like the player and or his coach, though it’s not popular right now to dog the coach.
To try to discuss it openly, Posuer addressed “first the elephant in the room” so we could have the broader discussion of why LSU fans think it’s appropriate to BOO (a player, coach, decision of) the #1 team in the nation on their home field when they are undefeated and blowing out an SEC team. (that’s my interpretation of the broader discussion but clearly Posuer explained his point of view.)
Apparently unable to grasp this point, though it has been repeated 7,459,102 (now 7,459,103) times in this thread, the discussion devolved into “you called everybody a racist” blah, blah, blah….
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
JJ to Billy
As I said in my earlier comment, I do not think that many of our fans are racist. The guy, JJ, has been an poor QB. Still should not any college player.
BTW. My son has played quite a bit of basketball with JJ, Patrick Peterson, T Matthiu etc. JJ has displayed a pretty big ego, cry baby attitude. Peterson, TM perfect gentlemen, great competitors, etc.
I do not think that many of our fans are racist.
Neither do we. One would think repeating it 2 dozen or so times in this thread would have made that clear.
Its funny, as much as people say they want to get “past all this racial stuff,” it’ll never happen if the first time somebody brings it up in any way, people react the way they have in this thread.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
People are reacting this way
Because this was a weak argument to begin with that is based on people’s opinion of other people that we don’t know.
Poseur could have summed this up into two concise statements.
“Racism affects everyone unconsciously…Therefore, some of the boos could have been racially motivated without people even knowing it.”
“It is also possible that there were outwardly racist people in the stands who hate JJ because he’s black, however we won’t ever know this but if it’s true it’s a shame”
Boom, done. The above two statements are facts. Not opinions. Poseur wrote a novel of an opinion piece, which of course is open for criticism…So that’s what he got.
Or even better, we could have not brought this up…you know since it’s pointless.
2011 LSU Accolades:
"Imperial Intergalactic Overlord Barkevious Mingo" -Andy Staples
"If Alabama's defense is a boa constrictor, slowly sucking the life out of opposing offenses, LSU's is more like a goon that throws the offense into a burlap sack and starts beating it with a stick." -Matt Hinton
"Oregon’s Chip Kelly is generally considered a coaching mastermind. Miles toyed with him here Saturday night." -Dan Wetzel, Yahoo Sports
"I don’t want to say that I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson…..but I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson." -Les Miles
LOL so you think semantics would have avoided this?
Our point this entire time has been that race plays a small part in this. Small part. The crux of the booing was over people not like Jordan Jefferson as a player. We’ve reiterated that we’re talking about a small percentage probably 2 dozen times now, we’ve just suggested that a percentage exists. Hell we haven’t even tried to put a number (and I’ve said that its probably a really small one a bunch of times now). Don’t tell me that people are reacting this way because we didn’t hedge the language enough. Just acknowledging the mere presence of any racism at all set people off.
People don’t want to talk about this topic period. That’s something that’s 100% clear to me right now. And so long as we treat racism like this monster in a closet, it’s always going to be sitting in that closet.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
by Billy Gomila on Oct 6, 2011 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions
Again you are confusing opinion with fact.
It doesn’t matter how hard you believe it billy, that doesn’t make it fact.
Our point this entire time has been that race plays a small part in this.
Opinion
Don’t tell me that people are reacting this way because we didn’t hedge the language enough.Opinion…And I might add that I believe if you’d have hedged your language a little more you wouldn’t have 500 comments. That’s my opinion.
People don’t want to talk about this topic period.
Dude, did it take this post for you to realize this? Really? Do you want to write your next piece about how maybe the booing was due to homophobia? This is a sports blog for Pete’s sake! Why would anyone even think to write this piece here? It has no business here. Like I said…EVERYTHING is racially motivated in the sub-conscious.
I don’t need to read about this topic on my favorite LSU sports blog. I come here because it’s a great place to talk about LSU football, not hear a bunch of rookies talk about racial issues.
2011 LSU Accolades:
"Imperial Intergalactic Overlord Barkevious Mingo" -Andy Staples
"If Alabama's defense is a boa constrictor, slowly sucking the life out of opposing offenses, LSU's is more like a goon that throws the offense into a burlap sack and starts beating it with a stick." -Matt Hinton
"Oregon’s Chip Kelly is generally considered a coaching mastermind. Miles toyed with him here Saturday night." -Dan Wetzel, Yahoo Sports
"I don’t want to say that I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson…..but I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson." -Les Miles
So we can't talk about anything that people find uncomfortable?
Bullshit.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
by Billy Gomila on Oct 6, 2011 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions
And no shit it's an opinion
It’s my opinion that on any given Saturday there’s an assload of drunk people on LSU’s campus too. I can’t verify that either, but it’s still pretty damn likely to be true. It’s my opinion that there’s a portion of people in Tiger Stadium that never graduated from LSU, either. I can’t back that up with numbers, but it’s still pretty damn likely to be true as well.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
by Billy Gomila on Oct 6, 2011 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions
You can talk about anything you want
If the goal of this piece was to attract comments and promote the blog…mission accomplished.
If the goal was to have a responsible discussion about your opinions toward booing and racism then we’ve failed. Rather miserably.
2011 LSU Accolades:
"Imperial Intergalactic Overlord Barkevious Mingo" -Andy Staples
"If Alabama's defense is a boa constrictor, slowly sucking the life out of opposing offenses, LSU's is more like a goon that throws the offense into a burlap sack and starts beating it with a stick." -Matt Hinton
"Oregon’s Chip Kelly is generally considered a coaching mastermind. Miles toyed with him here Saturday night." -Dan Wetzel, Yahoo Sports
"I don’t want to say that I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson…..but I think Mo Claiborne is faster than Patrick Peterson." -Les Miles
by LSU Jonno on Oct 6, 2011 12:04 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
LSU Jonno - I know "quit posting Southern Man"
but since I’m from Louisiana and have hard headedness in my DNA…
How did you miss that the RACISM discussion on here was a response to the charges of racism and race baiting being thrown around, including on this blog, since the Shady’s incident?
Billy, Posuer and myself have articulated the position, collectively about 100 times now, that RACISM likely played A VERY SMALL part in the BOOing because one of the MAIN issues is the apparent dislike of JJ AS A PLAYER.
“You’re a racist if you don’t like JJ” or “you played the race card because you do” or any such charges are SMOKE SCREENS for “I like my guy because I’m smarter than that grass eating coach” IMHO.
Which, as Billy has ingrained into my brain because he’s said it so dad gum much, might be WORSE than just being an ignorant racist.
WE ARE NOT CALLING LSU FANS IN GENERAL RACIST, we have simply acknowledged that some do exist, I know some personally so its not a guess, but we feel like it is the VAST MINORITY of the BOO crowd, which are ALL IDIOTS, again in my humble opinion.
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
Who's treating it like a monster in the closet?
The people suggesting you say, “hey, you! In the closet! Get the hell out of there!”
Or you and Poseur, sitting on the bed, hiding under the sheets saying, “ooooh, I’m afraid there might be something ugly and scary in the closet!”
by King Joey on Oct 7, 2011 12:53 PM CDT via iPhone app up reply actions
Poseur could have summed this up into two concise statements.
"Racism affects everyone unconsciously…Therefore, some of the boos could have been racially motivated without people even knowing it."
"It is also possible that there were outwardly racist people in the stands who hate JJ because he’s black, however we won’t ever know this but if it’s true it’s a shame"
Well, considering I’ve completely disavowed, repeatedly and in very plain language, this line of thinking: no. It wouldn’t do. this is not, and has neve rbeen about “calling out racists” or some such nonesense. It has always been about exploring our own attitudes towards race and sports, and whether it’s entirely healthy.
Dumping off all bad thoughts on some faceless racist guy we’ll never meet is a cop out.
How do you feel? What thoughts lurk in the dark corners of your own brain? What things make you uncomfrtable? Or are you totally comfortable and think we’ve knocked out that racism thing entirely? That’s what I talked about. Not some crusade to find the racists in the LSU fan base. That’s a waste of time.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
That’s what I talked about
No, it’s not.
On the other hand, I do not believe Jefferson would have been booed for simply entering the game were he white.That’s not about you; that’s about a large number (though small percentage) of LSU fans in Tiger Stadium on Saturday.
The reason I feel this way is because there is an ugliness to the comments about Jefferson among LSU fans that just feels wrong. Racism, at times, is like pornography. You can’t define it but you know it when you see it.That’s not about you; you are not “LSU fans”.
But the depth of the hatred aimed at Jefferson goes far beyond “he isn’t a good quarterback.” Every time someone called him a thug, I wondered if they were thinking of a different wordThat’s not about what’s going on in your head; that’s your speculation about what’s going on in OTHER peoples’ heads.
Every one of those lines I quoted from your article is a clear and unequivocal suggestion that some LSU fans have behaved in a racist manner with regards to Jefferson. The fact that you keep pretending you’re not making that claim is taking any possible usefulness away from the claims.
Or are you totally comfortable and think we’ve knocked out that racism thing entirely?Are you seriously suggesting that the entire point of your article was to pose the question of whether anyone believed there was still even a single person anywhere who harbors even one tiny bit of racist inclinations?
Don't parse my quotes out of context
Here’s the quote…
The reason I feel this way is because there is an ugliness to the comments about Jefferson among LSU fans that just feels wrong. Racism, at times, is like pornography. You can’t define it but you know it when you see it. We can all spot the obvious racist, but what about the more subtle kinds of racism? What about the racism that lurks in our own hearts?
(emphasis added)
The next 7-8 paragraphs are about my own attitudes. Specifically, what is like to be a white blogger of a sport played predominantly by young black men.
You are the one hung up on accusations, not me. I used the setup to then talk about my own attitudes. You can’t get past the setup because you’re still trapped on step one. I have no interest in calling people out by name
*Though I will point out that upthread you complain that I don’t present evidence, but when I do present evidence (the proactive nature of the boos, the depth of the anger displayed in online commentary), you then get upset that I’m talking about other people. You have set up a perfect no-win argument. If I don’t present evidence, I can’t talk about the issue, but if I do present evidence, I’m merely trying to throw accusations at other people.
In short, you’re a Liar. (see above for why this ironic and why I don’t actually mean this)
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I self-indulgently tweet @ATVSPoseur
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1 LSU Tigers  |
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