More Thoughts on Oversigning
I suppose my last post on this topic revealed me to be in the minority on the issue of oversigning. Also, my creative solution of giving everyone a scholarship for six years as a solution was not altogether popular. I want to get down, however, exactly what it is that bothers me about oversigning and what there is to do about it.
Let me be very clear that I do not think our own oversigning points to any sort of moral failing on our part, or on the part of our coaches. The rules not only allow for oversigning, but actively encourage it. To see how, we need to break down the overarching "oversigning" issue into its component problems. By which I mean, there are actually two different types of oversigning, each tied to one half of the 85/25 recruiting rule. The issues, both moral and humanitarian, are different for each type, and any solution will have to recognize the difference.
The first kind of oversigning is, I think, the most troubling practice. I call this "initial oversigning" which is not a particularly good name for it, but it's the best I can come up with. This is the practice of accepting more than 25 letters of intent in any given year. You can only give out 25 scholarships per year, and accepting more than 25 means that someone is not going to get a scholarship. Most teams do this expecting that one or more signees won't qualify academically. Indeed, sometimes you know for a fact that someone won't qualify, because they're too far behind academically or for some other reason. Others sign knowing that they may "greyshirt", a practice that has come under criticism, but is really not that serious of an issue so long as the athlete and his family know about it way ahead of time. LSU, for one, has had considerable success with its greyshirt program. Two former players who "greyshirted" became important players for us later: Trindon Holliday and Harry Coleman. All they have to do is delay their enrollment. As long as the player knows exactly where he stands from the minute he commits, I don't see a problem.
The problems come when a program is caught completely by surprise in having too many players qualify academically and someone who expected a scholarship can't have one. People insinuate this happened with the Elliot Porter situation, though no one really comes right out and says it, and we don't really know what happened there.
Nine times out of 10, the process works out and no one who qualifies is left out without knowing it well ahead of time.
To me, "initial oversigning" is not an issue at all so long as the coaches plan ahead and let their recruits know exactly under what conditions they will be allowed to enroll in the Fall.
The second problem I will call "back-end oversigning" and is related to the 85-person scholarship roster limit. This is the problem of signing more recruits than you can fit into the 85-person limit after seniors leave. This necessitates that players leave the program early, either to the NFL or to some other life. "Cut" is sometimes the word for it. This is the process that I think really needs to be fixed. Others of you don't see this as a problem.
The reason this practice bothers me is not that it punishes kids who don't turn out to be good enough at football. The problem I have is that the current system MANDATES that schools either a) cut their weakest players or b) use strategies that put it at a competitive disadvantage. It doesn't matter how good your weakest players are. If you have a roster full of future NFL draft picks, then you have no room on your roster for your future 7th rounders, and they have to disrupt their educations in order to continue their football careers.
My problem is that a scholarship after high school is nothing more than a promise for a tryout. If you sign 25 players every year, then after 4 years you will be 15 players over your limit, and nevermind what happens when you start redshirting people and making your roster even more bloated over the limit. In this environment, you will absolutely have to cut (either a "hard" cut in which you tell the person he has no scholarship here any longer or a "soft" cut where you invite him to pursue a transfer because he is too far down the depth chart to ever see real playing time).
For example, if you sign 3 defensive ends one year and 4 the next, you have 7 defensive ends within 2 years. You know that you will probably have to chase off at least two of them eventually to make room for future more recruits later. It does not matter if all 7 turn out to be good players, hard workers, and good citizens. Two of them (or more) will have to go. You know this the minute you sign them. So really all you have given the 7 of them is a promise for a tryout. You have signed these players knowing full well that some of them will have to go so that your team will be the best it can be.
I don't blame any coach for undertaking this practice. The rules allow it, and even encourage it, because it's the best way to make your team the best it can be. Neither Les Miles nor any other coach should unilaterally disarm, especially in an environment in which a few extra losses here and there could mean the difference between getting fired or getting a big raise (or a field named in your honor or a statue of you built).
So what's the solution? If you don't like my radical solution previously proposed, how about a simpler one? Raise the 85-scholarship limit. That limit necessitates coaches to cut players (or alternatively, not field their best possible team). Raise the limit to 100, and you won't have to have nearly as much attrition in order to keep adding 25 per year. I imagine most programs will continue to have voluntary attrition, because you still won't be playing more than about 50 players in meaningful snaps any given year, and some would rather go to another school than sit on the bench. You'll still also have players being kicked off for disciplinary problems from time to time, and players leaving early for the NFL from time to time. With 15 more scholarship slots, however, no one who wants to keep his scholarship would ever have to lose it so long as he does what's expected of him.
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I like
This idea. This would allow all kids the right to
keep their scholarship. It would also gives guys like Daniel Graff a chance to receive a well deserved scholarship after years of being a walk on because of attrition and players leaving early for the draft.
by cbkao on Feb 6, 2011 1:53 PM CST via mobile reply actions
Sigh....
There is no ‘oversigning issue’ except to those that want there to be so they have something to talk about. If you don’t make the grade, you can lose your scholarship – if you aren’t good enough in a sport, you can lose your scholarship – its that simple. And yes, you do compete against others for your grades; there are many classes that only give x number of As, Bs, etc, especially at the more prestigious universities, such as the Ivy league schools.
While your ‘solution’ to an albeit completely sensational ‘problem’ is good in theory, I don’t like it because I don’t believe in hand outs. If you fail to make your grades academically, there is no one there to feel sorry for you and keep you around; why should it be any different for those on athletic scholarship?
As I said it before, if you are worried you can’t keep your grades up for an academic scholarship, take the scholarship offer to a community college, not to MIT. If you are worried you can’t cut the mustard to keep your athletic scholarship, take the scholarship offer to play in the Big 10 – not the SEC – we only keep the best of the best down here.
Grade inflation at the Ivy's isn't the best example, but I agree with your overall point
An athletic scholarship is a 1 year deal – just like an aacademic scholarship. What’s the big deal about this? Assuming a school signs 25 a year – they are never going to be cutting 15 over 4 years. Kids get hurt, they quit, they get kicked off for discipline. As long as the coaches are upfront about the possiblity of grey shirts and getting cut later if you 1) are lazy or 2) can’t make the 3 or 4 deep as a senior – I don’t see the problem.
Richard -both of your attempts at solutions would essentially give big BCS schools an out by simply spending more money for athletes – and put smaller schools in a real bind. In other words, your solution to a more or less non-existent problem is to throw money at it.
Your solution is not likely to be very popular, either at small schools with troubled athletic budgets, or at big schools with big athletic budgets but troubled academic budgets. Not many are going to be fans of spending more money on pampered athletes at LSU when profs and instructors are being cut. It’s the way the world works man – a 1 year scholarship might not be renewed. A one year contract to teach as an instructor might not be renewed.
Actually
Grade inflation is rampant at Ivy League and similar (e.g. Stanford) schools and even more so at the very top Law Schools (Yale, Harvard, Stanford). At one point HLS was graduating 75% of its class with Greek Honors. While admission standards are indeed tough there is no question that there are real differences in ability, commitment and applicable skills between the admitted students and the grading system does all it can to make it difficult to identify those distinctions and ease the path for the best jobs (there are, of course otherwise for people to distinguish themselves but the grading system complicates the task)
In the case of oversigning Richard’s proposal in this post is not all that extravagant. It merely proposes to allow a small number of athletes who were good enough to get a football scholarship to LSU, who maintain their academic eligibility, stay out of trouble but for various reasons are not best suited to allowing LSU (or another team) maintain peek competitiveness complete their education.
The simplest, most logical solution
But it will cost $$$. Not a problem for LSU and other high profile BCS conference programs. Maybe a serious problem for Tulane, ULL, and co. (Of course, I’d argue that if you’re on such a shoestring budget that you can’t afford a few extra scholarships, you shouldn’t be in Division IA to begin with. And no one is going to force teams to carry a full 100 person roster, although they’ll obviously be at a disadvantage if they don’t.)
The flip side of this solution is to limit the yearly scholarship offers to 22. The important thing is that the two numbers be more balanced.
Don't Panic.
by 4.0 Point Stance on Feb 6, 2011 4:31 PM CST reply actions
x
Let me be very clear that I do not think our own oversigning points to any sort of moral failing on our part, or on the part of our coaches. The rules not only allow for oversigning, but actively encourage it.
Amazing that so few other schools do it given this “encouragement” from the rules.
Go figure.
Anyway, good to see LSU fans having to talk so much about this now. That’s progress, and given that LSU will be up against far better academically ranked, far more powerful, and far more affluent schools… and far more of them than LSU allies on this, your having to talk so much about this is probably a good sign that your days of having this trick are numbered.
Odd that school officials won’t come out and make it very clear that LSU will pull scholarships whenever it chooses because they are merely 1-year contracts. Most schools treat scholarships as 4-year deals, barring very bad behavior. I wonder why LSU would leave support for its aggressive policy to be made by fans.
Anyway, good luck fighting this to the bitter end instead of just refusing to do it and erring on the side of reputation-enhancing caution, but what an odd (and expensive) strategy to take given that this trick provides no real competitive advantage.
thank god you're here
I had almost forgotten that you were better than us.
by wadewilson on Feb 6, 2011 10:07 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
I know right
but so good of him to take the time to remind us EVERYtime ANYthing LSU Recruiting related pops up…
stalk much?
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
Don't you have other friends to play with?
Or are they tired of you embarrassing yourself too?
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
by Billy Gomila on Feb 6, 2011 11:18 PM CST up reply actions
i go to bed every night and thank God
i’m not you.
i mean don’t feel special or anything it’s a long list. but you’ve made your way to the bottom of it. congrats.
excuses are fun to have i guess.
by TDTGodfather on Feb 7, 2011 10:15 AM CST up reply actions
Do you
get wireless under your bridge, or do you have to go sit at Starbucks all day to post this shit?
by Yail Bloor on Feb 7, 2011 7:28 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Anthony Johnson is confused about the contract he just signed...
“I feel comfortable with him and LSU; that’s why ”http://www.neworleans.com/sports/lsu/414248.html" target="new">I’m going there for the next 4 years.
Rangers,
if you had an academic scholarship (i know, i know, that’s why this is a hypothetical) and you bombed your academics for a year, would you get to keep your magical fail proof scholly??
by TDTGodfather on Feb 7, 2011 10:18 AM CST up reply actions
He's a troll.
I was on an academic scholarship. Even though it could be cancelled I thought of it as a multi year deal. Same with my graduate assistantship. These could be revoked any time, but I knew that as long as i did what i was supposed to, they were multi-year deal.
Rangers is trolling by having fun with semantics. Nothing more.
In the history of college football, no player, no coach, no guru, compares with [Les] Miles’s masterful incorporation of applied chaos theory and time relativity into strategic game planning. Simply put, the man is on another level. A level many don’t or can’t understand. Genius.
BAD IDEA - Competitive balance and Programs Outside of Football
Your suggestion, while logical, poses huge issues for competitive balance and ripple effects throughout collegiate athletics. Fifteen extra men’s scholarships in football would cancel virtually all non-revenue men’s teams at nearly every university, because of the gender equity rule of Title IX. It seems unusual that 15 football scholarships mean abandoning many programs altogether, but most athletic programs have only a handful of scholarships to work with. Furthermore, the scholarship cap was initially created to keep powerhouse programs (like 1970’s era bama) from offering scholarships and hoarding talent. Bear Bryant’s success was due in large part to his ability to have well over 100 players on some sort or scholarship (or benefactor/booster supported “academic” aid). Even if Title IX wasn’t virtually prohibitive to your suggestion, you would see larger programs begin to talent pool (Saban is actually pretty good at it even under the current rules, it amazes me the way he uses the medical rules to solve attrition problems).
Completely agree, and that's not even focusing on what it would do to college football alone.
Ohio State would hoard players that would be third string or practice squad that would be starters at Bowling Green. LSU would do that with ULL; Bama with Troy; etc. This would also have ripple effects to FCS (1aa) and D2 schools; they would get less talent and the quality of football would suffer.
The rich get richer and poor get poorer. Richard’s proposal is great for the SEC, Big12Ten, Big10Twelve, PAC 12, etc. It’s very bad for the Sunbelt, MAC, CUSA, and the mid-majors. This idea would be great for LSU, but bad for college football.
In the history of college football, no player, no coach, no guru, compares with [Les] Miles’s masterful incorporation of applied chaos theory and time relativity into strategic game planning. Simply put, the man is on another level. A level many don’t or can’t understand. Genius.
I don't mean to slam you Richard.
I agree with you 90%+ of the time. I just don’t think this is a good idea. I did like your six year scholarship idea thought.
In the history of college football, no player, no coach, no guru, compares with [Les] Miles’s masterful incorporation of applied chaos theory and time relativity into strategic game planning. Simply put, the man is on another level. A level many don’t or can’t understand. Genius.
Yep - Rabend you've hit on the other big problems with this proposal
1) competitive balance
2) Title IX
It’s a competitive non starter and a legal non starter unless every D1 program cuts ANOTHER men’s sport. So what men’s sport (or 2) will you cut to ensure that no football player, no matter how lazy, underperforming (or whatever) else – will never, ever lose his scholarship?
And shouldn’t we do this with every other sport, just to be fair? I bet baseball teams “oversign” sometimes. Basketball? Men’s lacrosses (in the northeast/atlantic)
I'm with Greg
I liked the other idea better. This one is a disaster waiting to happen, and the ripple effects would be awful. Title IX compliance would become virtually impossible. And no one is going to add 15 women’s schollies to balance the 15 new football schollies.
What I liked about Richard’s other proposal is that it shifted the paradigm. You care about these kids’ education? OK, well, if a player gets cut from the team, he still gets a free education. It reduced the objection to oversigning exclusively to a competitive balance issue.
I still think the big difference is that southerners, as a group, don’t see a big problem with cutting a player for lack of performance. I certainly don’t.
Fake Pundit. Real Fan.
And The Valley Shook!
I think we keep coming back to the same reality
That there’s no easy answer to this.
If you treat it on the school end, with changes/adjustments to the scholarship structure, you run into budget (and Title IX) issues. If you treat it on the player end and affect transfer rules, that’s a whole other can of worms with players flipping all over the place (and as Auburn found out last Wednesday, that already happens to a degree).
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
There's a very easy answer to this.
The Big 10 has rules that disallow serious oversigning.
The problem is that you and others here want a way to keep exploiting recruits and gaming the system, and you know that the Big 10 rules brought to the SEC would prevent LSU from doing that.
Your interest isn’t integrity and ethics in the game. It’s just continuing on with the same morally reprehensible behavior LSU is currently engaged in.
I liked the other ideal better just with limitations.
If you are ‘cut’ because you didn’t ‘cut it’ on the field/team then you can keep your scholly or go play elsewhere without penalty. (I do favor the one year regular season non-compete)
If you are cut because you no longer qualify under NCAA academic standards or for disciplinary reasons then you are on your own and subject to regular transfer rules.
I also think the NCAA should not include ‘inactive’ scholarship athletes toward Title IX calculations, whatever that might be.
Finally, I think NSD should be at least one week AFTER a deadline for the NCAA Clearinghouse to clear athletes for eligibility. If said athlete does not clear he/she may not be signed by ANY member university until the following period, if said athlete is cleared at that time.
If the athlete goes the JUCO route then they do so without a promised scholly to any institution and may be recruited openly again in the next appropriate recruiting period.
Or we could all just admit to being back-water red-neck racist anti-education swine; stop violating civil rights by adopting ButtRanger 100 and the BIGtenleven12!’s morally superior rules of peace, love and bondage and thus evolve to northern enlightenment…
GEAUX TIGERS!!!
I've thought about the signing deadline too SouthernMan, but I don't think your idea can work
There are two arguments about signing day.
1) It’s too late – most students made up their mind a year ago and would be better served if they could sign in October.
2) It’s too early – before students have qualified.
The problem with point 1 is that you don’t always know if students have a shot of qualifying. The problem with point 2 is that you can’t know for sure if they have qualified – in some cases, until the summer after their senior year.
I would prefer an early signing period in the fall for kids that know what they want to do, followed by a signing period in march or so for everyone else. This would fix some of the craziness for some students and possibly push some kids to stop screwing around earlier on – to avoid losing a spot. But this does nothing for the issue of oversigning. I don’t mind that, because I don’t have a problem with oversigning (within limits).
There's a great example of this
The problem with point 1 is that you don’t always know if students have a shot of qualifying.
In LSU’s own recruiting class — Micah Eugene. The general opinion going into the fall semester was that he’d be JUCO bound, but he made up enough ground to get late offers.
Early signing periods can also create minor issues for both schools and players, should either side decide they no longer fit together.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Exactly Billy
And there’s no way to know if some kids will qualify until very late. Should those kids have to sit out a year or go the JUCO route? That seems more unfair than any oversigning complications.
I don’t think early signing periods are a cure-all – but I think there are reasonable workarounds.
1) If the student signs early and ends up in legal trouble (this could be defined broadly) the school can free itself of the obligation.
2) Possibly if the head coach leaves the student can be freed of the obligation (Not true for position coaches though – you’re out of luck there. It would be chaos otherwise).
I think that would fix most of the issues you are referring to Billy. But perhaps there are others you have in mind?
Well, for example
(and I imagine some will disagree as to whether this is a reasonable exception, but bare with me), you sign with a school partially on the promise that they are done recruiting at your particular position, but once you sign they pick up another player or two. On the one hand, that’s recruiting, but on the other, had you known they were going to do that you might have chosen a different school (especially if it was a difficult decision between choice A and choice B).
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook
Yeah, that's a reasonable point Billy...
I’m not sure there’s ever a way to really fix that though. Shoot, there’s a chance you could fax your LOI and then later that afternoon the school could accept one from an even higher ranked player at your position.
But you’re right – it would be a bigger problem with early signings. How does Basketball deal with it?
I don't think recruiting multiple players is as big a problem
By and large, if you sign a lottery pick point guard in the early period, another one isn’t likely to come on in the second period.
Writer (and a handsome one at that),
And the Valley Shook

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